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ZackJones

SCSA Rules - Edge Hits

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On 2/18/2017 at 6:31 AM, Thomas H said:

Then I'd be pissed off, ask the RO to call the RM, and get that miss removed.  If you have no opportunity to appeal, then either 1) there is no miss, or 2) the RM will have to order a reshoot. 

 

Currently If you weren't given the opportunity to appeal a miss then it must be called a hit. The only reason for a reshoot is failure of a timer to pick up all shots or range equipment failure.

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7 hours ago, zzt said:

I'll second the adding of SC training to the standard NROI USPSA RO training.  It wouldn't add that much.  I also agree a second RO should be watching hits.  I RO steel matches (unsanctioned) at one of my clubs.  I'm watching the gun and the shooter and only peripherally the hits.  I almost always catch everything, but the second RO who's only responsibility is to watch hits has the final say.

I spoke with Troy 2 years ago about starting SCSA RO Training....... Many steel shooters don't shoot USPSA so we don't need to be trained as RO's for that. It should be a separate class also. Adding it into USPSA isn't an issue but we need to get as many shooters trained as RO's as possible. Knowing the rules and differences of each game is critical. An RO at a large match stopped me mid string and told me my holster was illegal (in Open division)...because he didn't understand SCSA rules....Instantly screwed up the stage because now I had to defend what I was doing to an untrained RO. I would never volunteer at a USPSA match....I don't shoot it and don't know the rules.

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if USPSA would be willing to sell SCSA to someone then the entire discussion about "USPSA-like" becomes moot & we can establish a set of rules tailored specifically to THIS sport ...

 

Zach:  how much to buy SCSA from USPSA? :)

Edited by Nimitz

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Hit is a hit. Like said previously, some shooters listen to the dings....  its hard enough to hit a plate, why exclude the edge? Leave it alone.

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Is the edge of a plate still part of the plate?  Hopefully no one really has to answer this .....

 

Since we seem to like to be "USPSA-like" ....

 

In USPSA, if a competitor shoots a piece of steel and hits the edge that doesn't require it to be knocked down does it still score?      Yes.

 

If it's required to be knocked down does it only count if its a face hit and knocked down?  No

 

Let's focus on fixing the actual problem, not try to write new rules to address poorly training officials

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How can someone say an edge hit is not a hit? The steel was hit end of story. There is no gray area. The only gray area is was it an edge hit ? That's what issue is

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horntx40, SCSA rules piggy back on USPSA/IPSC rules, so an SCSA only RO would still have to learn most of them, whereas a USPSA RO would only have to learn a few additional, and a few exceptions.  I personally don't care if there are SCSA specific ROs.  I do think that SC differences should be put into the NROI course.  I'll tell you why.

 

At last year's East Coast Steel Challenge Championship I competed in two divisions.  One was Rimfire Open.  I used a 1911 with a custom 22 upper and a holster.  One one stage I showed clear when asked to do so, pointed the gun down range and manually dropped the hammer before holstering.  The RO told be that was not correct.  I said there is an exception for rimfire in SCSA rules.  He said no, we follow USPSA rules.  I asked him to look it up.  He went to the MD who told him that it was not permissible to manually drop the hammer in rimfire.  I complied.  It did not ruin my day.  I mentioned this to a veteran competitor, who had a conversation with the organizer to set the record straight.

 

Since many of the ROs at SC matches are NROI certified ROs, it would be nice it they knew the differences before hand.  A one page differences sheet handed out to ROs before the match might be all it takes.

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13 hours ago, hornetx40 said:

Currently If you weren't given the opportunity to appeal a miss then it must be called a hit. The only reason for a reshoot is failure of a timer to pick up all shots or range equipment failure.

 

Interestingly enough, the rules don't actually say that.  (The rules don't even include the word "reshoot" anywhere in them.)  If the stage cannot be scored correctly (and if a miss was not stated, allowed to be appealed, nor was it checked on appeal, nor was it allowed to be escalated to the RM on appeal then it wasn't scored correctly), then it must a reshoot, or turned into a hit, even though the rules don't say that either--but those are the only two decisions possible, since it can't be a miss since it wasn't scored correctly.

 

I'm not really sure what many RMs would do, actually.  (Those that follow the rules.)  It can't be scored a miss (as the RO didn't follow the required rules allowing the competitor a chance to appeal), so I'm thinking some RMs (in the interest of efficiency) would say "if it wasn't a called miss according to the rules, then it wasn't a miss, and was therefore a hit" and other RMs would say "the rules were not followed for that string, the string cannot be scored correctly, therefore it is a reshoot."

 

Either fits our current ruleset.

 

Wyliearms wrote:
" I have watched a really good shooter throw extra shots at a target in a string and blaze through subsequent strings in an effort to game a stage. In SC, it caused a 30 minute hang up on A: shot placement confusion and B: edge Hits.  My advice and take it for what it is: The score keeper, not the RO, should watch the hits. If they call it a no-hit, it is a no-hit. "


It is currently the secondary ROs job to watch for hits.  However, like all sports, the competitor should have the right to appeal, particularly given that some of our targets are a significant distance away, and we use rimfire firearms.  ROs make mistakes, and being penalized because a particular RO doesn't have perfect eyesight or hearing  isn't a good thing.

 

If extra shots were thrown at a target, the ROs should know how many are showing.  If a competitor puts extra shots on a plate (many) making it difficult to tell if there is a hit there, and later contests a miss call, his appeal will be more likely to be overturned by the RM if the RO says "you already put 6 hits on the plate earlier".  If nothing else, the RM will say "given the number of hits on the plate, if cannot be determined if this is a miss, and you will need to reshoot the string."

 

I note that if a competitor fires multiple shots on a specific plate, and then uses that in an attempt to get away with misses later, that's unsportsmanlike conduct, which has its own consequences.  (That's not "gaming," that is cheating.)

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Good discussion. I've talked to Mike and Troy about it. Edge hits are here to stay. Like it or not we're keeping them. 

 

Regarding training for SCSA - this is a recognized need and Troy has been tasked to develop training for it. I don't now if it will be supplemental material or an endorsement, etc. I completed the CRO bootcamp this weekend and Steel Challenge was mentioned twice (1) during my introduction and (2) to point out a difference in USPSA and Steel Challenge. 

 

As MD of SC State I recognize we have some deficiencies in our RO staff and we will work to get everyone up to speed. When I run competitors I'm focusing on what they are doing with the gun and making sure the timer is picking up shots for rimfire. I tell the score keeper and fellow squad members to watch the plates and assist with calling misses. If there's any disagreement we will inspect the plate after the string is complete.

 

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On 2/24/2017 at 7:21 AM, rowdyb said:

 

 

23 hours ago, hornetx40 said:

 

Edited by RickT
inadvertent entry

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The edge of the plate is part of the target, and any mark there should count. To me, it is the same as touching the perf on a USPSA target. We don't require the whole grease ring to be insde the perf, nor should we require any other standard. Unless we make the plates fall when hit... and then they should fall.

If you have a target painting problem at your matches, then paint the targets better. Please, don't make a painting problem into a scoring problem. Along the same lines, why would you want to not score in favor of the shooter when there is ambiguity? I absolutely hate to shoot with people who want to make match scoring into presidential debates. Just like a tie goes to the runner in baseball, edge hits go to the shooter.

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Painting has always been an issue at large matches. Competitors need to understand that if they don't take the time to check the edges they are just giving someone a free hit instead of the penalty they earned. Personally I won't claim an edge hit that isn't in the area where I broke the shot. .......

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Returning to the SC RO situation for a moment.  Add SC to the USPSA RO training makes sense, but I'd like to see SC-only RO training available.  When a club does RO training for USPSA do they really want someone in the session who will never RO a USPSA match?  And if slots are limited that's a further issue with an SC shooter taking up a slot in the class.

 

I don't know the length of a USPSA RO class, but might it be possible to structure the syllabus such that Part 1 covers USPSA-only content, Part 2 the overlap (division/equipment/) and Part 3 is SC-specific.  Just a thought

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Rick, the NROI course is two full days and involves shooting at the end of the second day.  To structure a course as you suggest would be confusing, because you have to learn some things before others make sense.  There is a WHOLE bunch of NROI stuff an SC RO would not need to learn, so it could probably be taught in a short, singe day course.   SC is much less complicated than USPSA.

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Let me touch bases with Troy and see what he's leaning towards for SC RO training. I know he had a conference with the RMI staff recently and perhaps this was a topic at that conference.

 

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On 2/26/2017 at 8:52 AM, Nimitz said:

if USPSA would be willing to sell SCSA to someone then the entire discussion about "USPSA-like" becomes moot & we can establish a set of rules tailored specifically to THIS sport ...

 

Zach:  how much to buy SCSA from USPSA? :)

 

Nimitz They won't sell USPSA, Offers have been made.....Maybe nobody has just offered enough?

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13 hours ago, hornetx40 said:

 

Nimitz They won't sell USPSA, Offers have been made.....Maybe nobody has just offered enough?

I have no idea what USPSA paid for it nor do I have any idea how much they would want for it.

 

You could buy WSSC match if you were interested though.

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I can't shape the sport into the image I want by just owning the WSSC.  I also can't make any money by owning the WSSC since I don't own the range I would be using to shoot it at. Having said that, I know my Club (range) would love to "own" the WSSC and have it every year there but they would expect me to run it for which I would receive exactly what?

Edited by Nimitz

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5 hours ago, Nimitz said:

 they would expect me to run it for which I would receive exactly what?

 

The small crew that runs the monthly match I shoot should be getting paid.  I'm not a member of the club, have no idea how the finances work.  

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4 hours ago, ZackJones said:

That would be a question for the range.

 

Sorry, that was a sarcastic, rhetorical question as I know exacetly what I would get for running the WSSC at my Club ... exactly the same thing I get now for running my monthly Level 1 match ....

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besides, I'm a LOT more interested in trying to buy SCSA than running the WSSC ...

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besides, I'm a LOT more interested in trying to buy SCSA than running the WSSC ...


I'm thinking you would need some deep pockets to pull that off. Things are picking up, nation wide, and I know Mike and the BoD are very pleased with the progress that's being made.

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The small crew that runs the monthly match I shoot should be getting paid.  I'm not a member of the club, have no idea how the finances work.  


Depends on the arrangement between the MD and club. For example at mine all income, less expenses, is turned into the club. At CMP range they collect a per competitor fee for use of the range. The remaining money goes to the MD.

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