Carry Optic back up gun

[Mrguns]

Question regarding carry optic, if for some apparent the optic crack during a match, will I be able to use my production gun as a back up. Same gun (e.g. glock 19 mos and regular glock 19) except with Iron sights instead? thx

[teros135]

Nope.  Optic is required in CO.

[Trent1k1]

teros 135 is correct.

[waktasz]

backup irons bro. 

[teros135]

Not in CO.  Sorry.

[9146gt]

Great plan for a backup gun.

I have yet to see a Glock or M&P with an Optic that the brass does not hit the Optic. Most do it 100%.

 

Tom

[SCTaylor]

13 hours ago, waktasz said:

backup irons bro. 

 

 

Fully Timmy style, BUIS from day one!

[JimmyBob]

Wrap a piece of saran wrap around your front sight and tell them it's the optic. There's isn't a production list of optics manufacturers.

[Mrguns]

1 hour ago, JimmyBob said:

Wrap a piece of saran wrap around your front sight and tell them it's the optic. There's isn't a production list of optics manufacturers.

lol

[teros135]

2 hours ago, JimmyBob said:

Wrap a piece of saran wrap around your front sight and tell them it's the optic. There's isn't a production list of optics manufacturers.

 

Right, Saran Wrap.  That would fool just about everybody.  

[Schutzenmeister]

I prefer tin-foil.  Then "THEY" can't interfere with my sight picture!

[DanL]

On 2/7/2017 at 8:07 PM, teros135 said:

Not in CO.  Sorry.

???  Explain where you see that  irons can't be on the gun too and if the dot stops working that you don't just finish out with the irons. 

Edited February 9, 2017 by DanL

[waktasz]

25 minutes ago, DanL said:

???  Explain where you see that  irons can't be on the gun too and if the dot stops working that you don't just finish out with the irons. 

 

He asked about switching to a gun with no optic on it at all. The optic is required. 

[rowdyb]

finishing with back up irons on a gun with a optic on it is different than laying down an optic equipped gun and picking up his production gun to finish a match.

 

if a person has shot a dot much they realize the dot is faster and all the people i read who say they'd clean up shooting irons vs a dot are deluding themselves.

[teros135]

8 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

<snip>

 

if a person has shot a dot much they realize the dot is faster and all the people i read who say they'd clean up shooting irons vs a dot are deluding themselves.

 

Yep. If CO is as fast and accurate as the proponents say it is, the HHFs established in the classifiers and at matches will keep everyone pretty much at the class level they're at in other divisions, just like all the other divisions do.  As a result, most folks won't be any more "competitive" than they are in other divisions - precisely because the equipment "advantage" in CO is the same for everyone (depending on whether you're shooting good equipment or a High Point with a $19.95 Cabelas optic )

 

If the optic (and the mag capacity) really isn't that much of an advantage, the HHFs will look pretty much like Production ... but is there any reason to think that will happen?  Everybody shooting it says it does... 

[mreed911]

23 hours ago, JimmyBob said:

Wrap a piece of saran wrap around your front sight and tell them it's the optic. There's isn't a production list of optics manufacturers.

 

Appendix D7 item 13 would preclude that: "...must be attached directly to slide between rear of slide and ejection port."

 

40 minutes ago, DanL said:

???  Explain where you see that  irons can't be on the gun too and if the dot stops working that you don't just finish out with the irons. 

 

Rules 5.1.6 and 5.1.7 cover this.  I'll make the request to DNROI, though, to see if a ruling is needed.

[teros135]

46 minutes ago, DanL said:

???  Explain where you see that  irons can't be on the gun too and if the dot stops working that you don't just finish out with the irons. 

 

I never said someone couldn't finish with the irons that are on a legitimate CO gun if the dot goes out.  The question was about whether a standard PRODUCTION gun (iron sights, no optic, per Appendix D4) could be used as a backup in CO.  The answer is "no", per the CO rules in Appendix D7, line 13, "Optical/electronic sights REQUIRED" (caps in original). 

Edited February 9, 2017 by teros135

[teros135]

4 minutes ago, mreed911 said:

Appendix D7 item 13 would preclude that: "...must be attached directly to slide between rear of slide and ejection port."

 

Rules 5.1.6 and 5.1.7 cover this.  I'll make the request to DNROI, though, to see if a ruling is needed.

 

It's right there, in in Appendix D7, line 13, "REQUIRED".  It's required in order to shoot in CO.  Why would a ruling be needed? 

[mreed911]

Sent to DNROI:

 

Quote

What is the proper procedure for RO's, RM's and MD's to follow if a competitor's optic on their Carry Optics pistol becomes unserviceable (battery dies, glass breaks, etc.)?

5.1.6 would seem to indicate that since it's required equipment it must be and remain serviceable.

5.1.7 would seem to prevent leaving the non-functioning optic on but using iron sights installed/co-witnessed as it's a "different" sight.

Appendix D7 item 13 seems to be clear that the optic is required but allows for electronic and non-electronic sights.

Would simply looking through the glass of a non-magnified optic (assuming the dot had failed) meet the requirements of "using" the optic or does 5.1.6 require the dot operate for the competitor to use the sight?

 

Edited February 9, 2017 by mreed911

[mreed911]

12 minutes ago, teros135 said:

I never said someone couldn't finish with the irons that are on a legitimate CO gun if the dot goes out.

 

6 minutes ago, teros135 said:

It's right there, in in Appendix D7, line 13, "REQUIRED".  It's required in order to shoot in CO.  Why would a ruling be needed? 

 

Since both electronic and non-electronic sights are allowed, the questions become:

• Is the dot required to operate to be considered serviceable under 5.1.6?
• If not, does the optic without a functioning dot still qualify as an optic since it's functionally a non-magnified optic (you're still looking through the glass)?
• Does 5.1.7's language about changing sights/methods apply to a transition between a slide-mounted optic and slide-mounted iron sights or an electronic sight to a non-electronic sight (if the dot fails)?

 

Edited February 9, 2017 by mreed911

[teros135]

16 minutes ago, mreed911 said:

 

 

Since both electronic and non-electronic sights are allowed, the questions become:

• Is the dot required to operate to be considered serviceable under 5.1.6?
• If not, does the optic without a functioning dot still qualify as an optic since it's functionally a non-magnified optic (you're still looking through the glass)?
• Does 5.1.7's language about changing sights/methods apply to a transition between a slide-mounted optic and slide-mounted iron sights or an electronic sight to a non-electronic sight (if the dot fails)?

 

 

There's nothing I could find in the rules about a "non-magnified optic", so that question doesn't really make sense.  An email has been sent to
Troy (by someone else) about that, and the answer should be interesting (unintended issues with new technology).

 

It's 5.1.7.1 that's relevant.  5.1.7 says the RM may approve a substitution, provided he is satisfied that (5.1.7.1) "The substitute handgun satisfied the requirements of the relevant Division", which means Appendix 7 for CO, which says an optic/electronic sight is "REQUIRED" (caps in original). 

 

Edited February 9, 2017 by teros135

[JimmyBob]

22 minutes ago, mreed911 said:

 

Appendix D7 item 13 would preclude that: "...must be attached directly to slide between rear of slide and ejection port."

 

 

OK, twist the saran wrap around the rear sight, and then "attach" it directly to the slide with some tape.

 

Or better yet, forget the saran wrap, just use the tape by itself. You can even draw a red dot on it if you want. 

[mreed911]

Just now, teros135 said:

 

There's nothing I could find in the rules about a "non-magnified optic", so that question doesn't really make sense.  An email has been sent to
Troy (by someone else) about that, and the answer should be interesting (unintended issues with new technology).

 

It's 5.1.7.1 that's relevant.  5.1.7 says the RM may approve a substitution, provided he is satisfied that (5.1.7.1) "The substitute handgun satisfied the requirements of the relevant Division", which means Appendix 7 for CO. 

 

 

I mentioned non-magnified because that's functionally what a "dead" red dot is - a 1x glass optic.  There's nothing in the rules that requires electronics (in fact, it's electronics or "optical") and 1x glass is, by definition, an optical sight (would be interesting to see an etched reticle like the AR-332 on a red dot, but I digress...).

The bigger issue seems to be switching from optics to iron sights.  Although they're on the gun already that seems to violate the rule on changing sights since for Carry Optics using the optic is specifically required.

[mreed911]

Just now, JimmyBob said:

Or better yet, forget the saran wrap, just use the tape by itself. You can even draw a red dot on it if you want. 

 

I'd love to see video of this.  Would laugh my ass off.

[teros135]

8 minutes ago, JimmyBob said:

 

OK, twist the saran wrap around the rear sight, and then "attach" it directly to the slide with some tape.

 

Or better yet, forget the saran wrap, just use the tape by itself. You can even draw a red dot on it if you want. 

 

https://imgflip.com/i/13ctsh