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NEW SCSA Rules ?

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4 hours ago, RickT said:

3. ROs at a recent match requested 1911 safety be engaged prior to changing mags.  This is excellent safety advice, but I don't believe it is required by rule.  Can someone weight in?  I'm thinking they had an AD launch over the berm recently when a round lit off curing a mag change.  I don't see how this can happen with finger off the trigger unless, of course, the ignition set was improperly installed.

 

RickT, given the fact that I'm not recognizing your name as somebody I recently RO'd, I suspect that I was not the RO you're referencing, but we frequent the same match(es), and I've made this request as an RO recently, so it might be me...  No, I don't think it should be added to the rule book because as you said it shouldn't be an issue if all mechanical issues and etc. are in order.  But some explanation as to why I've made this exact request of shooters just so all understand and can decide if they want to do the same...  

 

A few months ago I was squadded with a group of shooters (as I recall they were new-ish USPSA shooters who were giving Steel Challenge a try) and they were all right-handed shooters using 1911/2011's with single-sided safeties.  Bear in mind that in USPSA, virtually every Load And Make Ready for a 1911/2011 shooter involves inserting a magazine into an unloaded gun, racking the slide, engaging the safety, and then holstering the gun.  Naturally, this was their "auto-pilot routine" after every string, with one exception-- the guns had a chambered round after the first string.  So, this is what I was seeing as the RO:  they would exchange the magazines on a loaded gun, then they would engage the safety (I had to assume) as they were speedily lowering the gun into the holster.  ONE of the problems I found myself encountering is that I couldn't tell if the guns were safetied because I couldn't visibly see the non-ambidextrous safety engaged once the gun was holstered (the safety was against their bodies), AND I couldn't clearly tell if the guns were being safetied on the way to the holster because the movement was too fast, plus I couldn't hear the safety engage during the movement.  Theoretically, even if they were safetied while in the holster, it was entirely possible that the shooters muzzled themselves while lowering the gun into the holster before the safeties were engaged-- I simply couldn't tell.  ON TOP OF THAT, during the actual exchange of magazines out of and into the guns, while their fingers weren't inside the trigger guard during the actual reloads themselves (thus an obvious DQ), their fingers were hooked in the ready-to-fire angle and suspiciously close enough to the triggers that I found myself eagle-eyeing every single reload for safety.  No actual rules were being broken, but I was nervous about the potential for a bad situation occurring by the end of the day.  I really hate sending folks home early, and this overall situation was going to be repeated 39 times across about three shooters by the time we finished the match.  Given all of these factors, i basically just said to them, "Hey, guys, since you're going to be engaging the safeties anyway, please just deliberately do it before you insert the magazine so I can verify that it's engaged."  It was a simple request, they seemed to get it, and we did fine for the rest of the day.

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Wasn't me (or is it "I").  I think it's a good safety practice and I'm going to retrain myself to do so.  When RO'ing SC I don't pay as much attention as I should to the shooter's trigger finger during reloads.

My practice as been: drop the magazine, insert mag, safety on and reholster.  I would never holster with the safety off..  Once the ROs made the request I think I got to 75% compliance, but I'll get to 100% and request it of the folks I RO.

 

I think a big part of the concern, completely justified, is the muzzle angle when reloading; if a round goes off it could be headed to the moon in some cases.  Even though I don't like DA/SA folks in production having to lower the hammer on alive round the gun is almost universally pointed in a very safe direction

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My question Zack, is why do PCC's and RimFire Rifles have to be chamber flagged even when bagged, yet, rimfire pistols and all other handguns are not required to be flagged when bagged. Please tell me the safety difference and the thought process behind this one.

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I think I'll have to get into the safety on habit myself for RFPO.   For Open I already do for everything but the first string.  After MR I unholster, insert mag, rack, apply safety so the RO can see I did it, then holster.  After that the safety is always on, because I'm either reholstering, or changing mags after the third string.  For RFPO, the safety is never engaged, even while changing mags.  I'm always very careful about muzzle direction.  I shoot at club that do not allow the muzzle to be pointed over a berm, so it has become ingrained.  That being said, I'll try to remember to engage the safety after the first string.  It would be a good habit to develop.

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On 1/21/2018 at 7:43 AM, RickT said:

1. Given the 1 minute for sight picture I assume this includes taking sight pictures from  both Showdown boxes.  That is, no sight picture fro the second box once the course of fire has commenced?

 

2. Casing 22lr rifles - No need to use a chamber flag prior to casing if the bolt is left open?  I'll get my wife a chamber flag in any event, but very few folks use flags together with a case. Suggest clubs buy flags to provide to members.

 

3. ROs at a recent match requested 1911 safety be engaged prior to changing mags.  This is excellent safety advice, but I don't believe it is required by rule.  Can someone weight in?  I'm thinking they had an AD launch over the berm recently when a round lit off curing a mag change.  I don't see how this can happen with finger off the trigger unless, of course, the ignition set was improperly installed.

1 - No. Sight picture after moving to 2nd box on Showdown is permitted per 5.3.1.2.

2 - No. All long guns must have chamber flag (with bolt closed) regardless of transport method. I case my rifles and still have to use the flag. I don't like it. It think it's dumb to require it for cased rifles but the DNROI and BoD say we have to do it so we do.

3 - It's not covered by a rule (engaging safety). If the gun goes bang during mag change it's a DQ per 8.2.1.

 

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17 hours ago, UFO said:

My question Zack, is why do PCC's and RimFire Rifles have to be chamber flagged even when bagged, yet, rimfire pistols and all other handguns are not required to be flagged when bagged. Please tell me the safety difference and the thought process behind this one.

Because the DNROI and BoD said so. I fought against it and lost.

 

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Zach,

I don't run a Level 1 match, but it would be great if SCSA could send out periodic e-mails to all sanctioned clubs with rules clarifications that can be passed directly on to their members and match attendees.  I doubt many of us were aware of the chamber flag for rifles only when cased, but it's not a big deal and will avoid an issue should a shooter attend a match at which the rule is enforced.

 

I would include reminders such as hands and wrists above the shoulder to take the onus off the adhoc ROs who might be running a shooter.  The reminder going out to match attendees would make the ROs job easier.  Maybe a reminder to have ROs not help the shooter catch the round ejected at the end of a course of fire;  I don't like handling my gun with someone else's hand coming into my work space.

 

You've got plenty on your plate I'm sure and the SCSA rules, exclusive of equipment, are pretty darn simple, but just food for thought.

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Our local club  was nice enough to have a box of chamber flags on the  registration table for free to the shooters and everyone paid attention to the new rules.  Even the .22 autos didn't have to drop the hammer before casing or holstering.  I did drop my hammer just because I'm use to it.

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2 hours ago, ZackJones said:

Because the DNROI and BoD said so. I fought against it and lost.

 

The DNROI and BoD made a bad call on this one. It makes absolutely zero sense, at all, to flag and bag. I finally found my gripe...

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On 1/22/2018 at 8:48 AM, wyliearms said:

The DNROI and BoD made a bad call on this one. It makes absolutely zero sense, at all, to flag and bag. I finally found my gripe...

I agree I don't like this new rule at all.

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On 1/22/2018 at 8:08 AM, ZackJones said:

1 - No. Sight picture after moving to 2nd box on Showdown is permitted per 5.3.1.2.

2 - No. All long guns must have chamber flag (with bolt closed) regardless of transport method. I case my rifles and still have to use the flag. I don't like it. It think it's dumb to require it for cased rifles but the DNROI and BoD say we have to do it so we do.

3 - It's not covered by a rule (engaging safety). If the gun goes bang during mag change it's a DQ per 8.2.1.

 

 Zack

(1) Rule 5.3.1.2 says nothing about not being able to take a sight picture when moving from one box to another on showdown.  If anything the rule does allow for a sight picture on every run. 

(2) All rifles must be cased reference rule 5.3.8.3 and 5.3.8.4 in it says that the long guns must be cased after inserting the flag.....but 5.3.8.7 says they can be carried in a " 3 gun cart" ......does that mean if its in a wagon it has to be cased. This rules contradicts itself  in the current rules. It needs to be clarified and rewritten one way or the other. Either cases are required or they aren't.

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You can take a sight picture anytime you want. Speaking specifically about Showdown a competitor should take a sight picture after moving not a sight picture from both boxes during the make ready process.

 

All long guns must be flagged as part of unload show clear regardless of the mode of transport.

A case is not required if transporting on a cart.

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