NEW SCSA Rules ?

[Scootertheshooter]

I do believe responding to the buzzer is part of the game . If no we should just say 1,2,3 go[emoji15]


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[Thomas H]

On 12/26/2017 at 7:53 PM, jkrispies said:

 

Steel Challenge has traditionally maintained a focus on shooting as fast as possible, not playing "Gotcha" with the buzzer.

 

Not setting a cadence doesn't equate to playing "gotcha."

I am somewhat unsure why anyone would think so.

[Thomas H]

On 12/26/2017 at 1:27 PM, zzt said:

 Think of it this way.  A true false start occurs, and the gun is drawn. For whatever the reason, there is no penalty and a forced reshoot.  Actual creeping gets assessed a procedural.  A False start, for whatever reason, that does not result in a draw before the beep does not get a Stop and reshoot.  If allowed to continue without penalty, he gains an unfair advantage.  So as far as I'm concerned (or until the CRO or MD at the match tells me differently) any movement before the beep and before the draw is 'creeping' and I'll assess a procedural.  I don't see any other fair way to handle it.  Let them challenge the procedural and we will see what happens.

 

Yes, this is how the rules currently show it.  And yet, at almost every single SC match I've ever ROed, I've seen at least one person "false start" and NOT draw the gun because they realized the timer didn't go off, so they stopped themselves prior to that point.

If, somewhere in there, the timer DOES go off, now the person who has performed a false start (not creeping) must now re-start their draw, mentally focus back on shooting, finish the string of fire (the sum of which will take considerably longer than a standard string of fire for that person), AND will still get a penalty.

 

Your point is "if allowed to continue without penalty," and the solution the rulebook is currently saying is "we'll give them a penalty" when my comment is simply that in the case of a false start, the solution is "don't continue---stop, then re-shoot."  Which is what the rulebook SAYS for false starts!

 

I agree that a false start shouldn't be allowed to continue without penalty.  I don't agree that they should be penalized for reacting to a perceived start signal of some sort (even though the official one didn't occur).  I don't understand why a false start is specifically shown to deserve a stop/reshoot in one rule, yet with a definition of "false start" that doesn't match the majority of "false start" situations I've seen.

They can't challenge the procedural, because even in cases of obvious false starts (a beep happens in the next bay, and they respond to the beep) if they don't draw the gun, they are stuck with the definition given, and have to be given a procedural. 

 

I think that a fair way to handle it is based on quick movement versus slow movement.  If the competitor is creeping, they are moving to an advantageous position before the start signal.  And they'll be doing it slowly.  No false start will be slow.    Creeping = penalty.  False start = reshoot.

 

IMO.

[conditionone]

Intentionally, unintentionally doesn't matter. If your hand is below your shoulder when the beep sounds, it's a penalty. 

[Thomas H]

1 hour ago, conditionone said:

Intentionally, unintentionally doesn't matter. If your hand is below your shoulder when the beep sounds, it's a penalty. 

 

So people who have reacted to a timer start beep from another bay should be penalized for that?

[conditionone]

Yes. If your hands come back to the point where they can be seen from behind before the beep of the timer you should be tuned into (the one ~12" from your head) then no. 

[jkrispies]

19 hours ago, Thomas H said:

 

Not setting a cadence doesn't equate to playing "gotcha."

I am somewhat unsure why anyone would think so.

 In theory using the full allowable time span to vary the cadence sounds like a great idea but in practice very few people have that well of a sense of timing. The guy who good heartedly thinks that he’s keeping everything in the rules by going all over the span typically will have one that’s 1/2 a second, and then he’ll  have another one will be 4 1/2 seconds long, and then it becomes a gotcha game unintentionally. At my last match I had two guys get into a verbal argument because the RO was trying to use the full span,  and he was messing up the shooter.   The shooter nearly packed up his bag and went and found another squad, and he was right. The best way to handle it is to have the RO establish a cadence that is 2 to 3 seconds, and then if he’s half a second or so off it’s not a problem, giving the shooter the benefit of the doubt.  

[Thomas H]

4 hours ago, conditionone said:

Yes. If your hands come back to the point where they can be seen from behind before the beep of the timer you should be tuned into (the one ~12" from your head) then no. 

 

Even though the upcoming rulebook specifically states that a false start is a "stop, reshoot" situation. 

 

So according to you if the hands make it to the gun but don't draw they should be penalized, even though according to the rules if they make it to the gun and draw, they won't be.

 

That's an interesting way of looking at it. 

 

 

[Thomas H]

10 minutes ago, jkrispies said:

 In theory using the full allowable time span to vary the cadence sounds like a great idea but in practice very few people have that well of a sense of timing. The guy who good heartedly thinks that he’s keeping everything in the rules by going all over the span typically will have one that’s 1/2 a second, and then he’ll  have another one will be 4 1/2 seconds long, and then it becomes a gotcha game unintentionally. At my last match I had two guys get into a verbal argument because the RO was trying to use the full span,  and he was messing up the shooter.   The shooter nearly packed up his bag and went and found another squad, and he was right. The best way to handle it is to have the RO establish a cadence that is 2 to 3 seconds, and then if he’s half a second or so off it’s not a problem, giving the shooter the benefit of the doubt.  

 

I guess my question would be:  "How is a 4-second wait time messing up the shooter, when that is specifically in the 'should be' interval as described in both the rulebook and how ROs are taught to handle the start signal?"

 

Giving the shooter the benefit of the doubt of what, exactly?  I mean, prior to this new "cadence is a good thing," what exactly was the shooter trying to argue, based on the rulebook? 

 

In my experience, almost everyone who ROs doesn't have a problem keeping the start signal within 4 seconds.  True some ROs standby-beep people, but that IS something that can be definitively argued (and easily).  I don't think I've ever seen an RO wait more than 4 seconds to start someone unless the competitor kept moving, so the RO had to keep waiting.

[RickT]

Soon we'll need a lawyer at least at Level 2 and above matches.  I assume when USPSA initiates SC RO training there will be consistent guidance provided along with the rule book to cover the situation(s) being discussed.  If the whole cadence thing, one way or the other, is so important, then just have the ROs use the timer random start interval, let's say between 1.5 and 3 seconds; The RO hits the timer button on the last syllable of "standby" - no arguments, no .5 second standby-to-beep and no ridiculous 4 second wait, just enough uncertainly to prevent someone from gaming the timer.

 

All sorts of other "beep" variables: hard of hearing folks sans electronic muffs, timers with weak "beeps", different tones from one stage to another, maybe a shot loud enough from another bay to suppress the electronics.  Most of us are just trying to get better and are not looking to gain 0.1 seconds by shaving the rules.  We just want to enjoy the matches.  

 

Hand/wrist position is all over the place at the club level and while most are above the shoulder I don't see this enforced; I would, but in the vein of coaching.  I'm not going to start assessing 3 second penalties to someone because they are habituated to a low hand position.  It's seldom egregious. 

[Pasley]

Assuming that all commonly used timers have that function I would be fine with the timer set to random. It’s how I practice. 

[Scootertheshooter]

I’m reading this and am confused . Why would someone argue the RO starting within 1-4 seconds after stand by ? This is what the RO should be doing not having a cadence to do this .


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[Pasley]

Hypothetically: RO gives some people a nice smooth cadence on the commands and start beeep, others he varies it as if he were trying to  to throw them off?

[Hammer002]

11 hours ago, conditionone said:

Intentionally, unintentionally doesn't matter. If your hand is below your shoulder when the beep sounds, it's a penalty. 

This is absolutely, unequivocally WRONG.  If u even said something like this as an RO at a major match we would be having a conversation with the MD, who will correct you.  Creeping is the slow creep toward the gun while waiting for the timer, or not being still.  False start is quickly starting to draw, thinking u heard the beep, or just as a mental error.  Both are handled by the RO by simply waiting for the shooter to be still, or verbally correcting the shooter if it is a recurring problem or  the creeping seems intentional.  After this, assess penalties for noncompmiance.  If the false start occurs in a close instance with the actual beep and the shooter begins shooting, it's a reshoot.  All the same as USPSA and CLEARLY described in both sets of rules..  It's the shooters responsibility to be still while waiting for the beep. It'S the RO'S responsibility to start the beep only when the shooter is in the correct position. If something happens other than that, restart or reshoot.  Penalties are for intentionally attempting to achieve an advantage.

Edited December 31, 2017 by Hammer002

[Hammer002]

12 hours ago, Thomas H said:

 

I guess my question would be:  "How is a 4-second wait time messing up the shooter, when that is specifically in the 'should be' interval as described in both the rulebook and how ROs are taught to handle the start signal?"

 

Giving the shooter the benefit of the doubt of what, exactly?  I mean, prior to this new "cadence is a good thing," what exactly was the shooter trying to argue, based on the rulebook? 

 

In my experience, almost everyone who ROs doesn't have a problem keeping the start signal within 4 seconds.  True some ROs standby-beep people, but that IS something that can be definitively argued (and easily).  I don't think I've ever seen an RO wait more than 4 seconds to start someone unless the competitor kept moving, so the RO had to keep waiting.

All this.  Shooting is from the beep. When it occurs, not when someone wants it to happen. As Thomas said, the rules stipulate a varied time and u should be perfectly fine waiting within the timeframe stipulated. As far as the rest, never assume you are going to be made feel comfortable at a match. Some are good, some are less so, and some are even hostile. That's why, like jkrispies said, I practice irregular intervals of the beep. Not what the ro is saying or anyone behind me, but just the beep, no matter when it comes. 1 second, 5 seconds, or even during the stand by verbage.  I try to practice focusing on nothing but the first sound of the beep as soon as I become still in position.  Anything else, even if you are right is a distraction to YOU.

Edited January 1, 2018 by Hammer002

[conditionone]

2 hours ago, Hammer002 said:

This is absolutely, unequivocally WRONG.  If u even said something like this as an RO at a major match we would be having a conversation with the MD, who will correct you.  Creeping is the slow creep toward the gun while waiting for the timer, or not being still.  False start is quickly starting to draw, thinking u heard the beep, or just as a mental error.  Both are handled by the RO by simply waiting for the shooter to be still, or verbally correcting the shooter if it is a recurring problem or  the creeping seems intentional.  After this, assess penalties for noncompmiance.  If the false start occurs in a close instance with the actual beep and the shooter begins shooting, it's a reshoot.  All the same as USPSA and CLEARLY described in both sets of rules..  It's the shooters responsibility to be still while waiting for the beep. It'S the RO'S responsibility to start the beep only when the shooter is in the correct position. If something happens other than that, restart or reshoot.  Penalties are for intentionally attempting to achieve an advantage.

 

Going forward when the new rules are in effect I would be wrong. Still ok for about three hours or so. This is a thread about new rules so I should have stuck with that.

I never had to give a penalty for a false start or creeping nor have I witnessed anyone receiving one. It seems that when a shooter has a mental error and goes for the gun, they usually realize the error and stop before they draw, look to the RO and return to the ready position for a restart. 

 

I would like to see the rule like this.  If the shooter moves towards the gun between stand by and the start signal, and the gun is drawn, the string should be completed with a penalty.  A restart if the gun is not drawn. 

 

As far as the timer/RO cadence thing...well reaction to the timer is part of the challenge so I prefer random times between stand by and the beep.

[Scootertheshooter]

I agree reaction to the timer is part of the game . As long as it’s the same for everyone . Some RO’s have a cadence some don’t . The issue with that would be if the RO moves with the squad and they are done different by different RO’s. There is a clear advantage to one of the ways , just saying


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[Slow250]

It would be a total bummer if we didn't have to react to the beep. 

[Scootertheshooter]

Yes not knowing when it’s going to happen is fun or “challenging” get it ? Ok first bad joke of the new year


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[jkrispies]

The issue isn't with RO's who run the timer from 1-4 seconds.  The issue is with RO's who run the timer less than 1 second or more than 4 seconds, but they THINK they're running it 1-4 and "exercising their right to use the full span of the rules".  And why would they do this, exactly?  Because it makes the sport better, or simply because they can?  You ever watch a high school sporting event with second rate referees officiating the game, and before the end of the first quarter, you clearly get the idea that the event is more about the refs constantly making a point to the crowd and players that they are in charge, rather than having the night be about the players and the game itself?  That's what I'm fighting against.

 

To me, "following a cadence" doesn't mean sounding the beep at exactly the 2.5 seconds on every run.  It means that the RO is going for a beep that falls somewhere from 2-3 seconds.  That's a "cadence" but one with enough sway that it's still a random start.  This way, when the RO screws up and is a second fast or a second slow, miracle of miracles he's still within the 1-4 seconds of allowable window because a safety cushion has been built into the system.  

 

The "giving the shooter the benefit of the doubt" means that as an RO I'm going out of my way to make sure that I'm staying within the window, even if I personally unintentionally experience a moment of human error-- I'm giving myself and the shooter a cushion to allow for MY error so the shooter can be the best competitor that he or she can be.  Otherwise, if I'm going for a 1 second start--for no other reason than I can---and I pull it at .75 seconds catching the shooter off guard, the default becomes "Oops, too bad for you but I'm the RO and what I think goes.... y'know, reaction to the timer and all being part of the game.  Sorry, bub.  Next!"

 

It should be about the competitor, not the ref who wants to show off to everyone that he's in charge. 

 

EDIT TO ADD:  And on this same point, the idea of standardizing a 2-3 second beep (with a +/- 1 second safety window) helps to alleviate potential RO favoritism.  By this, I mean that we've probably all been the odd man on a squad and seen a situation where the "resident RO" turns out to be a dad/husband/boyfriend of somebody else on the squad who always gets the perfect beep and "attaboy" after every string, but when the daughter's/wife's/girlfriend's chief competitor in the group steps to the line, it's a 1 second beep, followed by a 4 second beep, followed by a 3 second beep, followed by a 4 second beep, followed by a 1 second beep.  Competitive equity can more effectively be achieved by reducing unnecessary variance, and the 2-3 second standard "cadence" with +/- 1 second safety cushion allows for this while maintaining an acceptable random start time.

Edited January 2, 2018 by jkrispies

[Hammer002]

On January 1, 2018 at 8:28 PM, jkrispies said:

The issue isn't with RO's who run the timer from 1-4 seconds.  The issue is with RO's who run the timer less than 1 second or more than 4 seconds, but they THINK they're running it 1-4 and "exercising their right to use the full span of the rules".  And why would they do this, exactly?  Because it makes the sport better, or simply because they can?  You ever watch a high school sporting event with second rate referees officiating the game, and before the end of the first quarter, you clearly get the idea that the event is more about the refs constantly making a point to the crowd and players that they are in charge, rather than having the night be about the players and the game itself?  That's what I'm fighting against.

 

To me, "following a cadence" doesn't mean sounding the beep at exactly the 2.5 seconds on every run.  It means that the RO is going for a beep that falls somewhere from 2-3 seconds.  That's a "cadence" but one with enough sway that it's still a random start.  This way, when the RO screws up and is a second fast or a second slow, miracle of miracles he's still within the 1-4 seconds of allowable window because a safety cushion has been built into the system.  

 

The "giving the shooter the benefit of the doubt" means that as an RO I'm going out of my way to make sure that I'm staying within the window, even if I personally unintentionally experience a moment of human error-- I'm giving myself and the shooter a cushion to allow for MY error so the shooter can be the best competitor that he or she can be.  Otherwise, if I'm going for a 1 second start--for no other reason than I can---and I pull it at .75 seconds catching the shooter off guard, the default becomes "Oops, too bad for you but I'm the RO and what I think goes.... y'know, reaction to the timer and all being part of the game.  Sorry, bub.  Next!"

 

It should be about the competitor, not the ref who wants to show off to everyone that he's in charge. 

 

EDIT TO ADD:  And on this same point, the idea of standardizing a 2-3 second beep (with a +/- 1 second safety window) helps to alleviate potential RO favoritism.  By this, I mean that we've probably all been the odd man on a squad and seen a situation where the "resident RO" turns out to be a dad/husband/boyfriend of somebody else on the squad who always gets the perfect beep and "attaboy" after every string, but when the daughter's/wife's/girlfriend's chief competitor in the group steps to the line, it's a 1 second beep, followed by a 4 second beep, followed by a 3 second beep, followed by a 4 second beep, followed by a 1 second beep.  Competitive equity can more effectively be achieved by reducing unnecessary variance, and the 2-3 second standard "cadence" with +/- 1 second safety cushion allows for this while maintaining an acceptable random start time.

 

Holy cow.  Don't think Ive read something where you are so fired up.  Dead...freakin...on.  Every word.  As I said before, this is so rampant I actually train for it.  Glad someone else said it, now I don't feel like the only one seeing it.

 

"you clearly get the idea that the event is more about the refs constantly making a point to the crowd and players that they are in charge, rather than having the night be about the players and the game itself"      ---------THIS.

Edited January 4, 2018 by Hammer002

[zzt]

Well, I'm not going to say there are no instances of favoritism or macho RO behavior, because I don't know.  But I will say I haven't seen them.  Mostly I see just the opposite- an intention to be scrupulously fair.  For example:  at my last SC match of the year I was on a squad with two other ROs.  We traded off running the timer and the iPad.  One of the ROs had a son was also on the squad.  He refused to RO his son.  That's the kind of stuff I see.

 

I'm one the those ROs who use the 1-4 second rule.  I know I don't go under one second or over four because I've practiced with a timer.  I also make sure the intervals are random.  I think it would be unfair, for instance, to give three consecutive three second beeps followed by a one second beep.  Or, four short beeps followed by a long beep.

 

When I first read the new rule, I thought 'how silly'.   That lets the competitor anticipate the beep after the first string.  It will happen if the recommendation is followed.  It may also lead to more 'pseudo' false starts.  Four consecutive 2.5 second beeps followed by an unintentionally long 3 second beep.  The shooter anticipates and moves.  Procedural.

 

Now, about the second half of the recommendation.  The cadence may vary from shooter to shooter.  Why?  The fourth shooter gets a long cadence after the first three shooters got short cadences.  Another opportunity for a pseudo false start and procedural.

 

I said I originally though this rule was silly.  I'm not so sure any more, except for the second part.  I think the way this will shake out is ROs will give consistent beeps in the 1 to 2 second range to everyone. 

[rockyroadsaz]

I always thought the "cadence" was in the verbal commands. Then the buzzer was anywhere in the 1-4 second range.

[wyliearms]

I guess I need to go read it so I can fuss about something.

 

Way back around page 4 I thought I had an opportunity when I saw no comps in PCCI. I looked it up and saw where it changed to allow them.

 

Hold on, I'll find something I'm sure.

[RickT]

Looking for additional clarification:

 

1. Given the 1 minute for sight picture I assume this includes taking sight pictures from  both Showdown boxes.  That is, no sight picture fro the second box once the course of fire has commenced?

2. Casing 22lr rifles - No need to use a chamber flag prior to casing if the bolt is left open?  I'll get my wife a chamber flag in any event, but very few folks use flags together with a case. Suggest clubs buy flags to provide to members.

3. ROs at a recent match requested 1911 safety be engaged prior to changing mags.  This is excellent safety advice, but I don't believe it is required by rule.  Can someone weight in?  I'm thinking they had an AD launch over the berm recently when a round lit off curing a mag change.  I don't see how this can happen with finger off the trigger unless, of course, the ignition set was improperly installed.