mreed911 Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 6 minutes ago, SCTaylor said: Come on Mike, I've got one that I'll sell you! The RX is a solid package, I really like it but love production more. If this division & rule set were in place last year when I started competing, you bet your butt I'd be hard core for Open Lite. I'll give you $250. $350 with the sight. It's used, so it's worth less... and it's worth $0 to you so that's a good deal for both of us, right? Seriously, though, gun/optic + new holster + new mag pouches + mags? I can't justify the switch away from gear that still works better than I do (especially after this horrible weekend). You ought to post it here, though - the new rules will be attracting LOTS of folks, I imagine. I'm actually looking forward to shooting CO in a match or two next month just to see how it runs vs. the short classifiers I've shot so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mhall Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 19 hours ago, Thomas H said: Amusingly enough, if you think about it, this will make Carry Optics actually MORE similar to guns people actually carry, since production-type guns, with slide ride, filled to capacity, is actually what people use. (For those few people who use them.) Keeping the mag length the same as Limited means that this doesn't become a "only factory mags, so certain guns are better!" situation, and it keeps a rule/check set we are already used to. I'm thinking this will probably actually make for an increase in CO shooters, really. Someone who already has an CO-type gun won't need to buy a ton of extra mags and mag pouches (yeah, I know the rest of us still will, but we are atypical) and can come shoot a match with what they've got. I don't see CO growing as fast as PCC or anything, but I'd bet that this will help. Slide-ride dot, full mags, production gun/gear, shooting minor? That can probably make for a pretty fun division. I do think the unofficial name should change from Welfare Open to Reliable Open now, though. Well said. Pretty much hit it right on the head. It does certainly sound more appealing and interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 On 1/29/2017 at 7:16 AM, teros135 said: Just wondering, why on earth would this cause Limited to "die a slow death"? And why would USPSA want to harm it's most popular division (Limited)? I would think this would hurt Production more than Limited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetback Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 Optics, minor, 140mm mags, 1 mag change. Whats not to like. I LOVE it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 On 1/29/2017 at 7:49 AM, earthshine402 said: You will love it! Open is amazingly fun! Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk I bought an Open gun a few months ago. It IS fun. Though, I probably wouldn't have bought an Open gun if CO started out with no capacity restriction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 22 hours ago, Thomas H said: Amusingly enough, if you think about it, this will make Carry Optics actually MORE similar to guns people actually carry, since production-type guns, with slide ride, filled to capacity, is actually what people use. (For those few people who use them.) Keeping the mag length the same as Limited means that this doesn't become a "only factory mags, so certain guns are better!" situation, and it keeps a rule/check set we are already used to. I'm thinking this will probably actually make for an increase in CO shooters, really. Someone who already has an CO-type gun won't need to buy a ton of extra mags and mag pouches (yeah, I know the rest of us still will, but we are atypical) and can come shoot a match with what they've got. I don't see CO growing as fast as PCC or anything, but I'd bet that this will help. Slide-ride dot, full mags, production gun/gear, shooting minor? That can probably make for a pretty fun division. I do think the unofficial name should change from Welfare Open to Reliable Open now, though. It also eliminates the "RO's can't count to 15" argument. Checking whether a mag fits the gauge, that's already in use, makes too much sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyBob Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 (edited) On 1/29/2017 at 6:13 AM, alma said: Optic is mandatory I want to see a sponsored shooter tie a bit of clear saran wrap around their front sight post, enter the CO Nationals and win it with their Production gun. Optic is mandatory, what a dumb rule. If you want to loosen it, let people half ass it with high cap Production guns. Why can't the guys with non-traditional other-than post/notch sighting systems have a division, since some of them are using those guns as daily carries. Edited January 31, 2017 by JimmyBob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mig1 Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 To be fair, it's called carry optics, not carry anything Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreed911 Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 I'm just excited to think about shooting my first match with RFPO - can't be far off, right, since we're harmonizing rules and making things cheaper and easier? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeMartens Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 42 minutes ago, JimmyBob said: I want to see a sponsored shooter tie a bit of clear saran wrap around their front sight post, enter the CO Nationals and win it with their Production gun. Optic is mandatory, what a dumb rule. If you want to loosen it, let people half ass it with high cap Production guns. Why can't the guys with non-traditional other-than post/notch sighting systems have a division, since some of them are using those guns as daily carries. Then why have production division? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 1 hour ago, JimmyBob said: I want to see a sponsored shooter tie a bit of clear saran wrap around their front sight post, enter the CO Nationals and win it with their Production gun. Optic is mandatory, what a dumb rule. If you want to loosen it, let people half ass it with high cap Production guns. Why can't the guys with non-traditional other-than post/notch sighting systems have a division, since some of them are using those guns as daily carries. It's an OPTICS Division. If you want to shoot a hi-cap Production gun, you can shoot Limited Minor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norther Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 56 minutes ago, JAFO said: It's an OPTICS Division. If you want to shoot a hi-cap Production gun, you can shoot Limited Minor. Sure, it's an optics division. So are Open and PCC, but they don't make the optic mandatory. One of the things I like most about USPSA is the freestyle aspect, which is probably why Production is my least favorite division. Why argue if someone wants to handicap themselves without the optic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreed911 Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 1 hour ago, six-gun shooter said: Why argue if someone wants to handicap themselves without the optic? Because there are divisions for them without optics: Production and Limited. PCC isn't strictly an optics division - it's optional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
titandriver Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 23 minutes ago, mreed911 said: Because there are divisions for them without optics: Production and Limited. PCC isn't strictly an optics division - it's optional. Open division is optional as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 1 hour ago, mreed911 said: Because there are divisions for them without optics: Production and Limited. PCC isn't strictly an optics division - it's optional. Using that rationale, why not just have Open division and that's it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 I shoot open and CO. I wish I was in a free state so I could take advantage of high caps for each. I love shooting dot guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 2 hours ago, six-gun shooter said: Sure, it's an optics division. So are Open and PCC, but they don't make the optic mandatory. One of the things I like most about USPSA is the freestyle aspect, which is probably why Production is my least favorite division. Why argue if someone wants to handicap themselves without the optic? Optics are required in Carry Optics (note the name ). Open is just that - open to a wide range of modification, to include adding an optic. PCC is provisional, and I think that they are just following 3-gun guidelines and allowing either a dot or irons. You can already load up a 141.5mm mag and shoot Limited with anything on the Production list. Why change CO if there's already a Division that works for what he's wishing? The freestyle aspect relates to how you shoot a stage, not with what. Production probably has the largest number of participants who complain they are not satisfied with their chosen Division. I happen to like Production the way it is, but I'm always seeing posts about changing it because people don't like something (e.g., increased capacity, slide mods, non-OEM external parts, different equipment positioning, etc, etc). Those people seem to want to shoot Limited, but with a cheaper gun and no handicap for shooting Minor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 3 minutes ago, d_striker said: Using that rationale, why not just have Open division and that's it? I don't understand your statement. His response to "why not let someone use an iron-sighted gun in CO?" was because there are already other Divisions they can shoot in. Why does that rationale lead you to say let's just have Open? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 (edited) 1 minute ago, JAFO said: I don't understand your statement. His response to "why not let someone use an iron-sighted gun in CO?" was because there are already other Divisions they can shoot in. Why does that rationale lead you to say let's just have Open? Because you can shoot every/any pistol in Open. Edited January 31, 2017 by d_striker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gooldylocks Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 5 hours ago, JimmyBob said: I want to see a sponsored shooter tie a bit of clear saran wrap around their front sight post, enter the CO Nationals and win it with their Production gun. Optic is mandatory, what a dumb rule. If you want to loosen it, let people half ass it with high cap Production guns. Why can't the guys with non-traditional other-than post/notch sighting systems have a division, since some of them are using those guns as daily carries. It would never happen. Optic will always be faster, and generally more accurate. It doesn't say that you have to have the optic on, or that you can't have irons. So you could cowitness some backup irons on there and just shoot them without turning on your dot, and get creamed by all the people that do shoot with their optic if you would like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreed911 Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 49 minutes ago, d_striker said: Because you can shoot every/any pistol in Open. Which is the opposite of the point - creating divisions to measure competitiveness among similar weapons. The point is that CO created a division for Production pistols with electronic optics, hence the original name of Production Optics. It's separate and distinct from Production, as well as Limited and Open. A new shooter walking into USPSA has options: start in Production or Single-Stack with a "out of the box" gun and iron sights, more or less (yes, I know each gets customized), start in Carry Optics using a Production pistol and slide-mounted electronic optic, start in Limited with a more modified pistol and no optic, or start in Open with anything you want. I fail to see how this creates a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeBurgess Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 I believe the optic requirement was put in to stop a bunch of guys from shooting their production guns in the new division to get classified, so they could gather actual mission count data on the new division as intended. This is actually a reasonable requirement for a provisional division as the provisional status is so we can judge the actual interest in the division as a whole and any rules tweaks we may make along the way. If we keep the optic requirement if/when the division becomes permanent that I feel would be a mistake as we do not require the use of competitive equipment in any of the other divisions, we merely limit how competitive you may make your equipment, reversing this would be odd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreed911 Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 1 minute ago, MikeBurgess said: I believe the optic requirement was put in to stop a bunch of guys from shooting their production guns in the new division to get classified, so they could gather actual mission count data on the new division as intended. This is actually a reasonable requirement for a provisional division as the provisional status is so we can judge the actual interest in the division as a whole and any rules tweaks we may make along the way. If we keep the optic requirement if/when the division becomes permanent that I feel would be a mistake as we do not require the use of competitive equipment in any of the other divisions, we merely limit how competitive you may make your equipment, reversing this would be odd. Other than the division being all about optics mounted on otherwise production pistols, sure... but I guess I don't see the point in your reply at that point. There's nothing stopping them from changing rules for Production, creating other new divisions, etc. This one was created for a specific type of pistol/optic combination with a specific purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeBurgess Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 8 minutes ago, mreed911 said: Other than the division being all about optics mounted on otherwise production pistols, sure... but I guess I don't see the point in your reply at that point. There's nothing stopping them from changing rules for Production, creating other new divisions, etc. This one was created for a specific type of pistol/optic combination with a specific purpose. if you look at all the other divisions there is nothing stopping someone from competing up with their existing gear (SS to Lim10, Lim, Open) (Production to Lim 10, Lim, open) (Revo to Production, Lim 10, Lim, Open) but by your logic CO shooters need to be protected from the competitive advantage of not using an optic. ps I also think SS should allow any single column magazine pistol, I don't think 1911 shooters need protection from sig 220s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 31 minutes ago, mreed911 said: Which is the opposite of the point - creating divisions to measure competitiveness among similar weapons. The point is that CO created a division for Production pistols with electronic optics, hence the original name of Production Optics. It's separate and distinct from Production, as well as Limited and Open. A new shooter walking into USPSA has options: start in Production or Single-Stack with a "out of the box" gun and iron sights, more or less (yes, I know each gets customized), start in Carry Optics using a Production pistol and slide-mounted electronic optic, start in Limited with a more modified pistol and no optic, or start in Open with anything you want. I fail to see how this creates a problem. What you're saying above is a contradiction of what you said regarding Production just loading up and shoot Limited minor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now