38 wadcutters for self defense

[toothguy]

Since reading the previous thread on the best snubbie to buy,  I realized I could not remember the last time I shot mine.  I have an old, all metal, model 60 with a hammer mounted firing pin.  The hammer is bobbed and the fixed sight painted orange.  Through the years I have collected lots of different 38 loads, currently I have it loaded with 158 +P SWHP even though it's not rated for +P ammo.

At about 7 yrds I shot a variety of different loads.  I noticed all the high dollar self defense loads, 110-135 gr bullet weight, grouped low with 4 to 6 inch groups.  It doesn't seem like my 1.8 inch barrel stabilizes the lighter bullets well.  The heavier bullets 148-158gr., all shot close to point of aim with half the group size of the lighter bullets.  The +P loads are horrible to shoot and really took a toll on my thumb.

The best load I found were some of my old PPC loads (Zero 148gr. HBWC, 3.2 gr 231).  I really have to squint just right to see the sight, but they hit right to point of aim.  Much more comfortable and accurate to shoot small groups well.  Looking a power factor and penetration it appears to be about the same as a FMJ .380. 

Just curious what others are shooting from there fixed sighted J frames or LCP's and what kind of accuracy, where they hit in relation the the sight ect.

 

  

 

 

 

Edited January 25, 2017 by toothguy

[Hi-Power Jack]

I'm sure you mean what type loads are being used in the snubbie division of IDPA ...   

I'm also sure that if you were to use that snubbie when the s..t hit the f.n, you would

NOT notice the impact on your thumb with the +P loads.     

[rmerillat]

I've owned a number of j frames over the years, and my current carry gun is a Model 360PD. Older guns all seemed to shoot to point of aim with 158 grain lead bullets, which makes sense, since that's what they were originally intended to shoot.  Of course, every fixed sight revolver might be different. The 360 shoots various 158 grain loads (standard and +P) several inches high at 10 yards, while lighter bullets shoot a couple inches low. This includes 125 grain +P, 110 grain +P+ (Win treasury load), and the old 110 grain standard pressure Win Silvertip. I found that the highly rated Speer 135 grain Gold Dot short barrel load shoots exactly to point of aim in this gun.  However, they have typical +P recoil. Accuracy has been good with everything I've tried in it. I've only fired a couple .357 Mag rounds in this gun, and I don't care to fire any more, so I don't know if it's really regulated for magnum ammo.  I wear a shooting glove if I'm firing more than a few rounds, since recoil is pretty brisk in an 11 ounce gun. If wadcutters hit to point of aim and are pleasant to shoot in your Model 60, then I think you've found your load. They are controllable, have adequate penetration, and cut a full caliber hole.  I'd think they'd be better than the old 158 grain round nose lead police loads in terms of "stopping power."

[Carmoney]

Meh.  38 wadcutters at 650fps?  I think my old catchers mitt would stop that stuff.  Might be just right for my 99-year-old grandma, though!    ?

Seriously though, my snubs are loaded with +P+ ammo, and even then I'm not overly confident in their stopping power.

Lots of Youtube tactical experts without a single gray hair in their pretty little beards would probably disagree with me.

[rmerillat]

If you think that's slow, I chronographed some old Winchester 200 grain RNL "Super Police" loads from the snub, and they averaged 540 fps!  Some standard pressure 158 grain lead ammo went about 640-670 fps out of the 1 7/8" barrel.  The 158 grain lead hollowpoint "FBI" load, which was apparently well-regarded, made 725 fps.

[RJH]

148 wadcutters with a max charge of unique seem pretty stout and are supposed to do 900 fps out of a snub, though I have not personally chronoed them.  I like that full bore meplate.

[toothguy]

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Ballistic Gelatin Tests/38 Special 10 Percent Ballistic Gelatin.html

Look at the 2'' barrel data from even the +P loads and compare that to performance of the wadcutter.  Not much expansion from the 148 wadcutter, penetration is about 15 inches which is pretty close to only two of the top +P loads (129 +P Hydrashock) (158 +P LHP).  The lighter faster HP loads expanded well in bare gelatin but lacked penetration.  In other denim tests I have seen the lighter HP loads fill with denim so the bullet doesn't expand and acts as a FMJ with greater penetration.  

I guess untill just reciently I would not have considered the wadcutter for self defense.  I think the snub revolvers are an obvious compromise and looking at the data is interesting.  The 148 wadcutter gives some of the best penetration with greater accuracy.  Not much seems to be gained by going to a +P load in a snub nose, except making the gun harder to shoot.   

 

[Hi-Power Jack]

Quite a few of those loads (ballistic gel) got to 12" at .50 caliber - I kind of like them, a lot  

I guess a custom WC with lots of oomph would not be bad, I still prefer a HP with .50+ size hole.

[toothguy]

2 hours ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

Quite a few of those loads (ballistic gel) got to 12" at .50 caliber - I kind of like them, a lot  

I guess a custom WC with lots of oomph would not be bad, I still prefer a HP with .50+ size hole.

If you look at lots of other tests where clothing is used, expansion from a short barreled .38 is unreliable at best.  The wadcutters used are a standard target load but still expand to almost .40 cal and have better penetration.  I'm thinking that the performance is due to relatively smaller charges of faster powders like bullseye or 231, in combination with the case filling softer lead bullet.  You get a more efficient powder burn from the short barrel and some more reliable expansion from the softer lead bullet.

[Jim Watson]

At present my M38 is loaded with Speer 135 GD "short barrel" because I could not get anybody's FBI load when last I bought .38 ammo.

I just don't have the perception of being well armed with midrange wadcutters.  The old service wadcutter would be a different matter.  I think the Buffalo Bore wadcutter is a bit overloaded for the job. 

I miss the Nyclad Chief's Special. 

 

[toothguy]

3 hours ago, Jim Watson said:

At present my M38 is loaded with Speer 135 GD "short barrel" because I could not get anybody's FBI load when last I bought .38 ammo.

I just don't have the perception of being well armed with midrange wadcutters.  The old service wadcutter would be a different matter.  I think the Buffalo Bore wadcutter is a bit overloaded for the job. 

I miss the Nyclad Chief's Special. 

 

http://www.grantcunningham.com/2011/11/ed-harris-revisiting-the-full-charge-wadcutter/

This is a good article on the full charge wadcutter (148 HBWC, 3.2 gr of Bullseye).  When I get some time I'm going to load some and see how they shoot.

[DWFAN]

I used to carry the .357 Magnum version of this load in my Ruger LCR. It made a whopping 140pf when I chrono'd it.

[PatJones]

At present my M38 is loaded with Speer 135 GD "short barrel" because I could not get anybody's FBI load when last I bought .38 ammo.

I just don't have the perception of being well armed with midrange wadcutters.  The old service wadcutter would be a different matter.  I think the Buffalo Bore wadcutter is a bit overloaded for the job. 

I miss the Nyclad Chief's Special. 

 

I couldn't find any 158 grain defensive loads when I picked up my model 60. A buddy at work had these at home though.
Actual FBI-contract loads from 1983. He used to work security at a defense facility and knew someone in the FBI. They shoot dead nuts to the sights at 25 yards.

[Carmoney]

20 hours ago, toothguy said:

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Ballistic Gelatin Tests/38 Special 10 Percent Ballistic Gelatin.html

Look at the 2'' barrel data from even the +P loads and compare that to performance of the wadcutter.  Not much expansion from the 148 wadcutter, penetration is about 15 inches which is pretty close to only two of the top +P loads (129 +P Hydrashock) (158 +P LHP).  The lighter faster HP loads expanded well in bare gelatin but lacked penetration.  In other denim tests I have seen the lighter HP loads fill with denim so the bullet doesn't expand and acts as a FMJ with greater penetration.  

I guess untill just reciently I would not have considered the wadcutter for self defense.  I think the snub revolvers are an obvious compromise and looking at the data is interesting.  The 148 wadcutter gives some of the best penetration with greater accuracy.  Not much seems to be gained by going to a +P load in a snub nose, except making the gun harder to shoot.   

 

 

Spool down to the bottom of this chart and you will find my carry load (Win. +P+ Treasury load).  Makes 976 fps out of a 2-inch, penetrates 8" and expands to .60" (though the clothing protocol it penetrates a little deeper and expands a little less).  Not exactly Thor's hammer, but way better than friggin' wadcutters.

 

(By the way, I like the idea of only 8" of penetration for defense ammo.  I am not a believer in the FBI studies and all of Marty Fackler's nonsense.)

Edited January 27, 2017 by Carmoney

[toothguy]

1 hour ago, Carmoney said:

 

Spool down to the bottom of this chart and you will find my carry load (Win. +P+ Treasury load).  Makes 976 fps out of a 2-inch, penetrates 8" and expands to .60" (though the clothing protocol it penetrates a little deeper and expands a little less).  Not exactly Thor's hammer, but way better than friggin' wadcutters.

 

(By the way, I like the idea of only 8" of penetration for defense ammo.  I am not a believer in the FBI studies and all of Marty Fackler's nonsense.)

 

I don't think any of the 38 snubbie loads should be considered Thor's hammer or a man stopper.  When you look at the clothing numbers, which are a more realistic scenario, the Win 110 +P+ load gives 11'' of penetration at about .49 expansion with 107 PF.  The friggin' wadcutters give about 15'' of penetration at .38 expansion with only 97 PF.  The friggin' wadcutter, designed for target use, gives better peformance at a lesser power factor.  I'm curious which load would be more accurate and pleasant to shoot.  

 

Looking at the performance of the friggin' wadcutter, I think the optimal 38 snubbie defense load would be something more like the full charge 148 wadcutter at about 800 fps, 118 to 120 PF.  Maintaining point of aim accuracy with a little more power, but still mild in the lighter snubbie.  I think the old school guys really had something with the 158 +P SWHP FBI load.  It has really good performance and doesn't rely on any unreliable expansion at 38 special velocities.  The 148 full charge wadcutter can give almost equal performance with a milder load.

 

The FBI standard is at least 12'' of penetration which you might not like, but I don't think that it is an unreasonable expectation for a self defense round.  The Winchester 110 +P+ meets the same penetration standards as a 25 acp hardball.

[GMM50]

There are new plastic style bullets.  Operate on a different principal.  Ruger has some loaded ammunition.  Local shooters have not yet found a good load fo 2" barrel the still very new.  https://www.polycaseammo.com/

 

[toothguy]

5 hours ago, GMM50 said:

There are new plastic style bullets.  Operate on a different principal.  Ruger has some loaded ammunition.  Local shooters have not yet found a good load fo 2" barrel the still very new.  https://www.polycaseammo.com/

 

 

I have seen these on the shelf and thought they were kind of gimmicky, but looking at the info I think I'll get some and see how they shoot.

[GMM50]

Friends here are finding same or better penetration and wound channel as ANYTHING else!!!

[Carmoney]

17 hours ago, toothguy said:

 

I don't think any of the 38 snubbie loads should be considered Thor's hammer or a man stopper.  When you look at the clothing numbers, which are a more realistic scenario, the Win 110 +P+ load gives 11'' of penetration at about .49 expansion with 107 PF.  The friggin' wadcutters give about 15'' of penetration at .38 expansion with only 97 PF.  The friggin' wadcutter, designed for target use, gives better peformance at a lesser power factor.  I'm curious which load would be more accurate and pleasant to shoot.  

 

Looking at the performance of the friggin' wadcutter, I think the optimal 38 snubbie defense load would be something more like the full charge 148 wadcutter at about 800 fps, 118 to 120 PF.  Maintaining point of aim accuracy with a little more power, but still mild in the lighter snubbie.  I think the old school guys really had something with the 158 +P SWHP FBI load.  It has really good performance and doesn't rely on any unreliable expansion at 38 special velocities.  The 148 full charge wadcutter can give almost equal performance with a milder load.

 

The FBI standard is at least 12'' of penetration which you might not like, but I don't think that it is an unreasonable expectation for a self defense round.  The Winchester 110 +P+ meets the same penetration standards as a 25 acp hardball.

 

I'm comfortable with the old-school FBI .38 LSWCHP loads.  But as a general rule, ammo that meets the 12" gelatin penetration standard will overpenetrate on a human, unless it hits bone.  In my view, the ideal defense load penetrates enough to get into the vitals, but expends all its energy and stops before exiting the other side.  

[GrumpyOne]

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Intent
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