single stack open gun in 9mm?

[hcore44]

I live in NY and must accept a 10rd limit on mags.  I have been shooting an open glock for a little while now and love it.  I understand that the platform has it limits and know I will want to branch out. I could go the 2011 platform and just use 10rd mags but the thought of paying $100ish per mag and not really be able to use them as designed kills me.  My thought was to build up an open gun on a single stack 9mm 1911.  From what I have been reading, 10rd mags are available and much less expensive.  This would let me shoot to my capacity and allow me to buy plenty of extra mags.  Thoughts?  

Moving out of this state is not an option for me for a long time due to my job and family.  Thanks for any ideas.

[hoserdude]

That is fine if you just plan on shooting in NY. If you plan on shooting any matches around the country in open, you will be at a disadvantage. Just something else to muddy the water, lol

[xdnok]

Sorry to hear to you guys have to consider these choices, however I can hit a reload much faster and more consistently with a 2011 than a 1911. Lot's of options with the 2011 platform for open not so much for 1911 at the moment and perhaps even down the road the resale of a 2011 open gun will likely be better in the long run.

Edited January 24, 2017 by xdnok

[Philip Dedmon]

If you are going to stay in NY then a 1911 is the way to go but,,,,, I would go 38 Super Comp with 10 rd. magazines. I know 9mm brass is going to be cheaper but I tried a 9mm Single Stack for a Steel Challenge gun a few years ago and did not like it, yes I know it was minor but I did NOT like the feel of the pistol. The rds. coming out of the magazine where not as smooth as the 38 SC and I could feel it. 

BTW, I am old school, I can remember when the 38 Super Single Stack Iron Sight pistol was the bomb. I had one, built by Blake Gann in Stoneville NC and let me tell you this, Blake Gann knew how a 1911 pistol worked. If you don't believe me ask Todd Jarrett.

[dansedgli]

Reloads will always be faster with a 2011 and your resale is going to suck balls. Don't do it. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Shmella]

2 hours ago, xdnok said:

Sorry to hear to you guys have to consider these choices, however I can hit a reload much faster and more consistently with a 2011 than a 1911. Lot's of options with the 2011 platform for open not so much for 1911 at the moment and perhaps even down the road the resale of a 2011 open gun will likely be better in the long run.

Yup agreed. Reloads with a 2011 vs 1911 are night and day. Most people including myself feel a 2011 fits the hand better as well. There are different grip options for a 1911 but I always liked a double stack 2011 much better in terms of how it felt in the hand and the more control I feel I have with a 2011 vs a 1911 with regular sized grips.

[jcc7x7]

Ask around your club and the others in the area.

Somebody has and old open gun as stated above, i.e. SS 38super with a "bird" mouth comp on it .  We all shot them back then.

I resurrected mine when I moved to NY (i.e. Grand kids) beg, barrow one and put a dovetail mounted Leupold ProPoint, Burris fastfire etc on it and try it out for a while.

I know you have to put it on permits etc

BUT as stated above

Reloads seem smoother with a 2011,  On the timer its .20 shot to shot. multiply that times 3 each field course and you have almost 3/4 of s second.  How competive is your nature?

 

[mont1120]

I "voluntarily" shoot L10 in non socialist states, and started out with a Kimber in .45 using single stack mags. Last year I purchased an STI Eagle in .45, and the difference in reload speed and time are huge. I'm not recommending a .45 at all, just thinking you will be able to raise your scores instate, yet still have a competitive platform if you shoot somewhere west of NY.

[BeerBaron]

Look to places that have been through this. Australia brought in 10 round mag limits a number of years ago and Canada had had them too. Both countries have big ipsc shooting populations. From my experience open guns there are identical to open guns everywhere except for the mags. Practically no one is running a single stack in open. 

The 2011 has a better grip, easier reloads and if you travel interstate you can gas it up with big sticks. The single stack open will be an orphan. 

[zzt]

I'm going to go against the grain here.  For one thing, mag changes for me are equally fast between a 1911 and a 2011.  All my pistols wear magwells.  I shoot with a lot of people who shoot SS USPSA and I envy their speed.  While I am fast, some of them are lightning.

 

If you are limited to 10 rounds, there is no reason not to consider a SS pistol for Open.  I'm doing the same thing now, just for fun.  I had an unused JEM Guns 1911 frame laying around that I wanted to build something on.  I have enough 45s.  I have a 2011 in 40sw and a CZ 75 TS in 40sw, so I really don't need another 40.  I decided to go 9mm, even though I really don't care for the cartridge much.  The thought was to build a dedicated Open Steel Challenge gun, and then put my full race 22 conversion upper on it for RFPO.  My intent was to put poppels in the barrel and use factory ammo.  Along the way I was convinced I would be better off using a conventional comp rather than barrel ports.  So I orders a TruBor blank and had a custom comp configuration cut.  Six 10-round 9mm mags cost $110.

 

Along the way I ran into a deal on a Caspian HiCap frame in 9mm.  I bought it and will fit it to the slide along with the 1911 frame.  So now I will have a single and double stack 9mm to shoot whatever I want with it.

 

BTW, since you are limited to 10 round mags, you could consider a 40 Open gun.  I have one and it is a hoot.  You make Major easily without going past published SAAMI specs, you have fewer feeding problems because it is a straight walled case, and the brass is readily available for free, or to purchase.  Then with just a barrel change you could shoot SS Minor or Major.

 

BTW2, I have been a 1911 lover and user for years.  I find the 1911 feels better to me than the 2011, but I have small hands.  That's why I picked up the Caspian HiCap.  I like a smaller grip.  If you want a 1911 Open, go for it.  Don't worry about resale value.  You'll keep it.  There isn't anything you can't replace on a 1911 to turn it into something else you want.

[Gooldylocks]

It's all already been said, but....

Build a 2011. If you ever want to go shoot outside of New York, you can just have a buddy bring you magazines and shoot full capacity open. If you build a 1911 and then decide to sell it down the road, you're going to get reamed on the resale. A 2011 is going to be more forgiving on reloads than a single stack ever will be, even if not faster. The large taper at the top of the magazines just sucks the magazines into the gun, and makes 2011s probably the fastest guns I've ever loaded.

Oh, and make it 9mm.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[zzt]

The OP is trying to save money, otherwise he would not be asking for alternate opinions.  I can build a custom 1911 for $1800 in premium parts, slide machining and finishing (not counting labor to fit everything).  I cannot build a 2011 of the same quality for anything near that price.  Then there is his point about the mag cost.  $115 for 6 Brownell's 9mm 10-round mags is a lot more frugal than $600 for 6 10-round 2011 mags, assuming you don't have to pay to have them tuned.

 

Alternately, I could buy an SA Loaded for well under a grand and have a trubor barrel fitted.  Change out the mainspring components and tune the trigger and you have an Open gun for $1500~$1600 with mags, but no optics.  

 

Personally, if I were in that situation, I'd buy a "standard" 1911 9mm, have some slide lightening done, put one or two poppels in the barrel, and slide mount an optic.  Then I would shoot Open Minor.

[hiker88]

23 minutes ago, zzt said:

The OP is trying to save money, otherwise he would not be asking for alternate opinions.  I can build a custom 1911 for $1800 in premium parts, slide machining and finishing (not counting labor to fit everything).  I cannot build a 2011 of the same quality for anything near that price.  Then there is his point about the mag cost.  $115 for 6 Brownell's 9mm 10-round mags is a lot more frugal than $600 for 6 10-round 2011 mags, assuming you don't have to pay to have them tuned.

 

Alternately, I could buy an SA Loaded for well under a grand and have a trubor barrel fitted.  Change out the mainspring components and tune the trigger and you have an Open gun for $1500~$1600 with mags, but no optics.  

 

Personally, if I were in that situation, I'd buy a "standard" 1911 9mm, have some slide lightening done, put one or two poppels in the barrel, and slide mount an optic.  Then I would shoot Open Minor.

Interesting ideas for a nice singlestack steel gun. ?

[Gooldylocks]

21 minutes ago, zzt said:

The OP is trying to save money, otherwise he would not be asking for alternate opinions.  I can build a custom 1911 for $1800 in premium parts, slide machining and finishing (not counting labor to fit everything).  I cannot build a 2011 of the same quality for anything near that price.  Then there is his point about the mag cost.  $115 for 6 Brownell's 9mm 10-round mags is a lot more frugal than $600 for 6 10-round 2011 mags, assuming you don't have to pay to have them tuned.

Factory 10 round STI Mags are more like 60 apiece. So while still expensive, definitely not 600 dollars. Not to mention that if you are going to be shooting this gun in open you are gonna want the fastest reloads possible, which means Dawson mags and no gap magwell ($38 apiece, plus ~100 for the magwell and stuff)

 

Alternately, I could buy an SA Loaded for well under a grand and have a trubor barrel fitted.  Change out the mainspring components and tune the trigger and you have an Open gun for $1500~$1600 with mags, but no optics.  

By my math I am over $2,000, starting with a SA loaded. Pretty damn close to 2011 territory

 

Personally, if I were in that situation, I'd buy a "standard" 1911 9mm, have some slide lightening done, put one or two poppels in the barrel, and slide mount an optic.  Then I would shoot Open Minor. 

Ah, excellent. Make an already less desirable tool even worse by shooting minor. OP, if you are trying to be competitive in Open division, do not shoot minor. 

 

[zzt]

Gooldy, you have a propensity to impose your personal requirements on others.  Take you magwell comment, for example.  I've been shooting a Sig 1911 Tacops in competition since 2011.  It has a very small magwell.  I have four Wilson ETM mags and four 10-round modified Wilson 47? mags that I have been using for those 5 1/2 years.  You know what?  The feed lips are still in perfect shape after 40,000+ rounds and the finish of the underside of the magwwell isn't even chipped.  If you are good with mag changes, you do not need a humongous magwell.

 

$2000 for a modified SA Loaded.  $820 for the gun.  $300 for the Trubore barrel.  $65 for the W/N cut.  $95 to have the barrel fitted. $20 to convert the ILS system.  $115 for the 6 mags.  I forgot the Loaded doesn't come with a magwell, so add another $85.  That comes to exactly $1500.  You must pay an awful lot for your guns and parts.

 

Shooting Minor Open.  The OP is trying to make the best of a bad situation, and trying to hold down expenditures while doing so.  He's new to Open, as am I.  Neither us are likely to be "competitive" in Open for a while yet.  Even though I score an average of 92% ~ 94% of all the pints available on a stage shooting Major, I'm still beaten by two shooters shooting Open Minor.  I'm going to try it myself this year just to see.  While you may be obsessed with being competitive, not everyone else is.  I admit it is nice to win, but the act of shooting is what is the most fun.  So I'd do it even if I finished last.

 

BTW, I got the $100 per mag from the OP, who ought to know.

[Gooldylocks]

 

59 minutes ago, zzt said:

Gooldy, you have a propensity to impose your personal requirements on others.  Take you magwell comment, for example.  I've been shooting a Sig 1911 Tacops in competition since 2011.  It has a very small magwell.  I have four Wilson ETM mags and four 10-round modified Wilson 47? mags that I have been using for those 5 1/2 years.  You know what?  The feed lips are still in perfect shape after 40,000+ rounds and the finish of the underside of the magwwell isn't even chipped.  If you are good with mag changes, you do not need a humongous magwell. Fast reloads never touch the magwell, but a big magwell gives you a much larger safety net. My single stack currently wears a tiny magwell and I can hit 1.2ish reloads with it, but as soon as I start shooting SS more seriously I will be changing it to a large Dawson one for the additional safety. I can certainly tell the difference between my open gun and my SS gun on how easy it is to load, and it comes down to the forgiveness of the magwell. 

 

$2000 for a modified SA Loaded.  $820 for the gun.  $300 for the Trubore barrel.  $65 for the W/N cut.  $95 to have the barrel fitted. $20 to convert the ILS system.  $115 for the 6 mags.  I forgot the Loaded doesn't come with a magwell, so add another $85.  That comes to exactly $1500.  You must pay an awful lot for your guns and parts. Trigger work and parts? Gunsmith time to drill and tap the frame for a scope mount? The mount itself? Slide racker, replacement grips, the basepads to work with a larger magwell (which, granted, you wouldn't need if you were using a tiny magwell) 

 

Shooting Minor Open.  The OP is trying to make the best of a bad situation, and trying to hold down expenditures while doing so.  He's new to Open, as am I.  Neither us are likely to be "competitive" in Open for a while yet.  Even though I score an average of 92% ~ 94% of all the pints available on a stage shooting Major, I'm still beaten by two shooters shooting Open Minor.  I'm going to try it myself this year just to see.  While you may be obsessed with being competitive, not everyone else is.  I admit it is nice to win, but the act of shooting is what is the most fun.  So I'd do it even if I finished last. Sorry for assuming that the point of the game is to win, my mistake. 

 

BTW, I got the $100 per mag from the OP, who ought to know. A cursory search of the internet shows that to be a fair bit more expensive than they really are, but since he said it then I'll give it to you.

 

[zzt]

goodly, Q.E.D.

 

Pay attention.  ILS upgrade for $20 gets you an nice 3.5 lb. trigger.  If you want lighter, mess with the sear spring.  I specified Slide mounted optics.  Who on god's green earth would specify a frame mounted 1911 optic unless you were a dedicated bullseye shooter with a superlative gun?  Duh.  

 

I like winning.  I've won my Club's Pistol Championship two years running.  The Championship event consists of three equally rated segments:  bullseye NM course, 45 ACP, Steel, Action.  That being said, I have no problem finishing mid-pack in Open Major.  On my squad I'm competing against a 30 year Open M and a 10 year Open M, plus a couple of Open As and Bs.  My ego is such that I don't care.  I'm happy if I beat one of them on a stage, and I'm happy to learn from them  if I don't.  Winning is not the be all and end all.    If it isn't enjoyable, you don't make friends, and you put too much pressure on yourself, it isn't worth it.

[pskys2]

The only differences between a 1911 and a 2011 are width of grip, # of rounds and whether the slide locks back.

Open shooters have gravitated to the 2011 because it gives an edge in rounds but most don't lock back the slide, not an issue when you have almost 3x's the rounds.

You will give up match points heads up to a 2011, but most level II & III cof's have places to reload, it just takes some planning.

FWIW I have more issues with reloading my Limited gun than my SS, with the SS or Production or L10 every move leaving a position has a reload.  With a hi-cap I have to plan it, and then remember it?!

But there is a reason for the 2011 hi-cap style being the choice of Limited/Open competitors.

[Steve RA]

Primarily where they are legal !

[zzt]

pskys2, LOL.  I'm just the opposite.  I'm so used to Limited and Open that I screw up when shooting 8 or 10-round mags.  All the clubs I shoot at set their stages up to be SS friendly, even the outlaw stages.  So it's not the stage layout that is the problem.  It's me.  On the first stage or two I'll forget I don't have 20 in the mag, shoot to slide lock, then have to do a standing reload.

[BeerBaron]

There is no doubt a 2011 is easier to consistently load under match pressure than a 1911. 

 

The 2011 mags are bigger and are tapered so you only have to get the narrow part into the massive hole to get it started. 

 

Id also take gooldy's word on that given I've seen footage of him running 0.80 reloads on his 2011. I'm sure he's good with the single stack too but I'd be surprised if he can regularly stick 0.80 reloads with it. 

[steviesterno]

I think you would be well served with a single stack. I ran a dawson magwell on mine, and it's pretty quick. Maybe a hair slower than a 2011 load, but honestly there's time to be made up transitioning between arrays and getting into shooting stance. My vote would be to get a 9mm or 40, whichever you already load for. Have a comped barrel installed (didn't think you could have threaded barrels in NY?) and a slide ride optic slapped on. It would be good for steel challenge or carry if you leave the state, mags are much cheaper, and you can load up some major ammo if you want. Get the slide all chopped up, have it painted crazy, and go nuts. 

 

what works for you doesn't have to work for me. 

[jkrispies]

Been watching this thread for awhile, so figured I might as well jump in...  I live in Kalifornia, BTW.

 

If you already have a 2011 Open gun that you're shooting, just keep it and buy the 10 round mags.  Yes, the modified 2011 mags are expensive and silly, but it's still way less expensive than building a whole new gun just to save money on magazines.  Plus, if you're already used to shooting your current 2011, your learning curve won't have to accommodate another platform.

 

Regarding 1911 Open guns, they actually aren't terribly unusual amongst shooters who only do Steel Challenge and no USPSA/IPSC/Run'n'Gun type competitions.  The reason for this is there's no reloads on the timer in Steel.  I know somebody who builds them, and they are very nice guns, especially if your hand is already used to shooting Single Stacks.  If I were to go Open in Steel Challenge, I'd go that route because I've always been a Single Stack shooter in USPSA, and that's just what my hand knows.  If steel comps are something you shoot or plan to shoot in the future, it's worth considering for that purpose.

 

Regarding reloads, if you put a magwell on a 1911 such as the Dawson ICE or their IPSC version like I use, the reloads are pretty easy.  That said, you'll still be way slower than folks shooting the fully loaded mags who are only reloading once vs. 4-5 times per stage, obviously, but guys who are extremely good at reloading can keep up okay.  For comparison purposes, look at the scores of your Single Stack shooters vs. Limited shooters at your matches to see the time difference amongst the top shooters.  That's about the time difference you'll see in yourself if you shoot an Open single stack vs. a normal Open gun.

[Steve RA]

If you plan to travel out of NY to a lot of matches, then I'd go for a 2011, if not planning to travel then the 1911 is a less expensive option.  

You won't be at much, if any, real disadvantage if everyone is limited to 10 rounds.  Reload speed is somewhat important, but not as much as moving rapidly, acquiring a fast sight picture when you get there and accuracy.