P320 X5 Thread

[AmarokTactical]

1 minute ago, Nick179 said:

Appendix  D7 21.4 is what you're looking for. It will answer all your questions. 

But D7 is for CO, he's talking about Production where in 22.2 it says "Grips – any addition or removal of material which changes the factory profile or adds function such as beavertail or thumb rest."  

 

I still think this grip smoothing is allowed as what is changing isn't the profile of the grip. 

[alma]

9 hours ago, AmarokTactical said:

Right, this is on the side of the grip and doesn't alter the profile, but rather just the width by a tiny amount. It doesn't add to the beaver tail or add any function to the grip so it should be good to go. Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know you can make those kind of adjustments to the grip.

 

Nothing nothing covered by grit was touched on that grit job so it should still be legal for Production and Carry Optics. 

For comparison if you want to see what I actually looks like removing material and soothing the beavertail out then it's more like this CO/Limited only reduction:

 

Edited July 14, 2017 by alma

[Magsz]

3 hours ago, AmarokTactical said:

Right, this is on the side of the grip and doesn't alter the profile, but rather just the width by a tiny amount. It doesn't add to the beaver tail or add any function to the grip so it should be good to go. Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know you can make those kind of adjustments to the grip.

You can in carry optics apparently.

 

Production, hell no.  Grit jobs and stippling?  Absolutely, but you CANNOT smooth an area to change the profile of the grip.  That is a defined, visible, external change.

[MadhatRR]

Well, I measured my front sight and it's .235....

But seeing the post about making the Deltapoint fit got me thinking.

With a little dremel work I bet I can make my Vortex Viper fix...

 

It sure did! All I needed to do was knock a corner off. 

[alma]

I had a text edit above to change a "nothing wasn't" to a "nothing was." I sometimes hit the wrong word when I am typing fast on my phone. 

Nothing on the beavertail of that first gun we were discussing was even more touched and it is absolutely Production legal. 

[Scott Steele]

Alma, what grit did you use?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LHshooter]

19 hours ago, Gviz said:

I'm shooting 6inches low as well out of the box at 10-15 away. ( using freedom 115gr bulk for break in) but not worried since I'm building it as Carry Optics. But would like to know the fix just in case I want to play production. I'm going to measure the front sight. Do I need to push them out to do it? (I'll be Shooting 147 moly 130pf oal 1.10) thanks in advance!

Yes, you push the front sight out with a drift (brass or something soft) and push the new sight in. I replaced my factory front sight because it was too narrow for my liking and replaced it with a Dawson that is 0.100 wide and .230 tall. Would have liked a 0.105, but they do not off that width at this time. FWIW, the little tool that Dawson provides to push out the front sight was of no use to me. It is made of soft aluminum and got mangled long before I was able to push out the sight. Just try to get the front sight aligned in the center as best you can, otherwise you'll have to use the windage adjustment on the rear to get it zeroed.

19 hours ago, Gviz said:

 

 

[ltdmstr]

For those with the jacked up rear sight, you can get a shorter (and preferably wider) front sight from Dawson and bring that down a bunch.  The sights Dawson have listed for the P320 Compact are the same dovetail as the X5, so you have more choices than what they have listed for the full size.  I switched to a .185 x .115 and the rear sight is almost all the way down with the gun shooting dead on.

Edited July 14, 2017 by ltdmstr

[Gunnar971]

I'm hoping someone can help point me in the right direction here. I spent about 45 min today trying to get the sites dialed in at 25yds. The elevation I was able to get within an inch or 2 of intended point of impact (I started about 8in low). However my windage adjustment is elluding me as I can not seem to get the point of impact to move far enough right. I moved the rear sight in both directions (counting clicks so I could return back to my starting point). I started with smaller 2-4 click adjustments in one direction and then made larger 15-20 clicks adjustments. When that didn't have the desired effect, I went back to zero and repeated the process in the other direction and still my point of impact only got as close as approximately 3-4" left of intended. At one point, I was off the paper all together after a large adjustment (though I'm not sure if it was right or left, but probably left). I came back half way and my point of impact was right back where I started. I can get the shot to move  a little (1-2")left a bit, then bring it back right but never far enough right to be zeroed. I then cut the distance in half to approximately 12 yards and repeated an abridged version of the process with the same results. 

 

I honestly must be going crazy or am doing something stupid that I'm overlooking or something. I've sighted in plenty of scopes/red dots over the years and never had this kind of struggle. Everything seems buttoned down tight, no sights moving, no slop in the slide, etc... all shooting was done seated on a rest. I had a buddy shoot the gun too to verify it wasn't me and he got the same results. Groupings were fairly consistent throughout the process. 

 

Also, if I am low at 25yds, shouldn't my point of impact be high at 7yds? It's not, it's still low. 

 

Shooting 115g factory Remington 

 

TIA

[ltdmstr]

If you've exceeded the adjustment range on the rear sight, your only option is to move the front.  So center the rear, move the front, then adjust the rear to zero.  As for elevation, if you're low at 25 your going to be low at 7.  The difference in point of impact at those distances is miniscule.

[LHshooter]

8 hours ago, Gunnar971 said:

 However my windage adjustment is elluding me as I can not seem to get the point of impact to move far enough right.

 

As ltdmstr stated in his post, it sounds as though you have to move your front sight in order to get your windage zeroed. Since you are shooting LEFT, you have to move your front sight to the LEFT (this will move your groups to the right) in order to get centered. Before you move the sight, see if you can visually tell if the front sight is not centered on the slide. If you have a pair of calipers, you should be able to get a measurement from each side of the front sight to see if they are equal.

[Mig9]

On July 10, 2017 at 6:52 AM, Mig9 said:

Thanks. Maybe I should buy the grams kits. If anyone can recommend it or not please comment. 

Here is my experience with a couple of things discussed so far. 

 

SIGHTS: my gun shot really low and left, like 6" at 15 yards. I was able get it zeroed by adjusting the rear only up and to the right . It is really accurate. 

 

RECOIL SPRING: I got the Springer SS guide rod and I have settled on the 11# spring for 132 power factor 147 grn 9mm. I started out with the 14#. Then shot a USPSA match with the 12 and really liked it, but today I tried the 11 and believe thats the one for me. If not it's the 12#. 

 

TRIGGER: I polished, took a sear spring out, and I put in the curved Gray Guns PELT trigger. It's measuring around 4.75 pounds. I like the trigger a lot. It is clean and crisp and while it could be lighter it is not holding me back at all. The reset is not as tactile as the stock trigger but after shooting it I see no negative effect, especially fast shooting. By the way the reset feel improved after about 1,000 rounds. I don't know the pull weight before the changes - I suspect 6.5-7. 

 

MAGS: I shoot Production so I took out the magwell and I added the Springer Precision basepads. 

 

SLIDE RELEASE: I changed mine to the smallest made since sometimes I would not go to slide lock due to my thumb placement. 

 

Hope this helps. 

[Norbet]

Trigger.

 

I have a P320 RX, sent trigger to Gray Guns, feels great.

 

if I move that fcu to a P320 X-Series could it be production legal?

 

Different shape, so not sure. Kept it curved. Was told if I wanted this one straight I would have to send it back, since it had the gray Guns work they adjusted so I could not just swap our to a straight one in this fcu.

 

i have heard yes, I have heard no... I have searched and do we have something solid I can depend on before a big match and getting moved division.

[alma]

18 minutes ago, Norbet said:

Trigger.

 

I have a P320 RX, sent trigger to Gray Guns, feels great.

 

if I move that fcu to a P320 X-Series could it be production legal?

 

Different shape, so not sure. Kept it curved. Was told if I wanted this one straight I would have to send it back, since it had the gray Guns work they adjusted so I could not just swap our to a straight one in this fcu.

 

i have heard yes, I have heard no... I have searched and do we have something solid I can depend on before a big match and getting moved division.

It's the exact same part. This is one of those areas where the USPSA rules haven't been caught up to the modular design. I would struggle to figure out which FCUs came on which of my guns from the factory as I mix and match often. I think an explicitly interpretation of the rules would say it's not legal but practical implementation can't tell a difference and there is absolutely no advantage to be had. This is even worse than the Production hammer issue and makes much less of a difference IMHO. 

[sfinney]

As an X-Five is just a P320.... like a Shadow is just another SP-01 or CZ-75.... why wouldn't you be able to use an X-Five grip module on an RX, or any P320 for that matter? Other manufacturers are exchanging all parts between all models, and calling it legal. Not sure why changing the grip would be any different. The serial numbered lower FCU and original slide/barrel for that all model are still being kept together, as a gun.... its only a change in grips.

Edited July 17, 2017 by sfinney

[alma]

40 minutes ago, sfinney said:

As an X-Five is just a P320.... like a Shadow is just another SP-01 or CZ-75.... why wouldn't you be able to use an X-Five grip module on an RX, or any P320 for that matter? Other manufacturers are exchanging all parts between all models, and calling it legal. Not sure why changing the grip would be any different. The serial numbered lower FCU and original slide/barrel for that all model are still being kept together, as a gun.... its only a change in grips.

 

I know someone who put an ask in to DNROI on the grip topic. I would hope you could use them across approved guns but since it changes the profile a lot and perhaps even the magwell (especially moving the X Grip to the full size guns) I would want some verification. 

[sfinney]

Eagerly awaiting a ruling, agree it would be best in writing. In the meantime.... is it illegal to switch to a small or large grip frame on a P320 (they all come with a Medium?) - quite a different shape, profile. Or is it illegal to switch backstraps on other guns like Glock, M&P etc? Some of those backstraps significantly change the profile.... 

 

 

 

[Nick179]

D4 21.6 states 

Sights, firing pins, firing pin retainers, pins, extractors and ejectors MAY be replaced with OFM or aftermarket parts.
Any other components which are externally visible may ONLY be replaced with OFM parts which are offered on the specific model of gun or another approved gun from the same manufacturer except as specifically clarified below. Examples of external components which may only be replaced with OFM parts include (but are not limited to): magazine releases, slide stops, thumb safeties and triggers. 

[sfinney]

10 hours ago, Nick179 said:

D4 21.6 states 

Sights, firing pins, firing pin retainers, pins, extractors and ejectors MAY be replaced with OFM or aftermarket parts.
Any other components which are externally visible may ONLY be replaced with OFM parts which are offered on the specific model of gun or another approved gun from the same manufacturer except as specifically clarified below. Examples of external components which may only be replaced with OFM parts include (but are not limited to): magazine releases, slide stops, thumb safeties and triggers. 

So you are saying based on this, and the grip frame being one of the "not limited to" parts, it should be legal for Production to put an X-Five grip frame on a regular Full Size P320?

[Nick179]

2 minutes ago, sfinney said:

So you are saying based on this, and the grip frame being one of the "not limited to" parts, it should be legal for Production to put an X-Five grip frame on a regular Full Size P320?

 

Read the rules, don't read into them. Is the X5 on the approved production list? Yes! So are all models of p320 except the SC. 

Thus allowing you to swap "most" parts between any P320 or X5 on the approved list.

So according to the above rule, if you wanted to place an X5 flat trigger in any model of the P320 it would be legal. 

If you wanted to swap different generation slide lock levers, it would be legal. 

If you wanted to swap sizes of grips (S,M,L) it would be legal. 

If you wanted to put an X5 grip module on a FS slide for production it would be legal because the grip module is a readily available part that doesn't require a 4473. To me it's no different than switching out a Gen 3 glock frame for a Gen 4 because of the new mag release size. They are both approved and on the list. 

[R0CKnU]

8 minutes ago, Nick179 said:

 

Read the rules, don't read into them. Is the X5 on the approved production list? Yes! So are all models of p320 except the SC. 

Thus allowing you to swap "most" parts between any P320 or X5 on the approved list.

So according to the above rule, if you wanted to place an X5 flat trigger in any model of the P320 it would be legal. 

If you wanted to swap different generation slide lock levers, it would be legal. 

If you wanted to swap sizes of grips (S,M,L) it would be legal. 

If you wanted to put an X5 grip module on a FS slide for production it would be legal because the grip module is a readily available part that doesn't require a 4473. To me it's no different than switching out a Gen 3 glock frame for a Gen 4 because of the new mag release size. They are both approved and on the list. 

 

I believe this is the same rule that allows for swapping the entire FCU as well. I'm still not clear which rule applies to aftermarket triggers (PELT). But in general, it sounds like once the shape (flat or curved) is available OFM then it becomes damn near impossible to chase down all the aftermarket variations and they just throw up their hands. That's my overall impression of how the rules get applied. Though I'd like to hear a better explanation than this.

[sfinney]

36 minutes ago, Nick179 said:

 

Read the rules, don't read into them. Is the X5 on the approved production list? Yes! So are all models of p320 except the SC. 

Thus allowing you to swap "most" parts between any P320 or X5 on the approved list.

So according to the above rule, if you wanted to place an X5 flat trigger in any model of the P320 it would be legal. 

If you wanted to swap different generation slide lock levers, it would be legal. 

If you wanted to swap sizes of grips (S,M,L) it would be legal. 

If you wanted to put an X5 grip module on a FS slide for production it would be legal because the grip module is a readily available part that doesn't require a 4473. To me it's no different than switching out a Gen 3 glock frame for a Gen 4 because of the new mag release size. They are both approved and on the list. 

I reads the rules. I have a  reasonable command of the English language; I know what I think the words mean.

I was unclear as to whether the quote of  that section was offered as proof for, or against, the item in discussion. Hanging a rules quote out there without any further comment.... well, you would be amazed how many different people have read the same words of the rule book and came up with different answers, on many different subjects.  Especially about Production items.   Thanks for your input, we are in agreement.

Edited July 17, 2017 by sfinney

[Nick179]

1 hour ago, sfinney said:

I reads the rules. I have a  reasonable command of the English language; I know what I think the words mean.

I was unclear as to whether the quote of  that section was offered as proof for, or against, the item in discussion. Hanging a rules quote out there without any further comment.... well, you would be amazed how many different people have read the same words of the rule book and came up with different answers, on many different subjects.  Especially about Production items.   Thanks for your input, we are in agreement.

Not a knock towards you, just used your quote for reference. Sometimes the rules are interpreted very differently by others.  USPSA rules have a few contradictions I've seen in production modifications.  It's sadly do what "you" think is right and if you get caught, try your best to explain and point out the multiple rule sets that support your decision.  With so many approved guns it's hard to make a general blanket rule for minor parts and swapping of parts in a set manufacture.  

Its like OFM (Original Firearms Manufacture) is interpreted so many ways when I talk to people. 

[alma]

There are specific rules about Grips in Production that haven't been been referenced yet. Those might be more applicable than the one mentioned. 

[S&W686]

Made it to the range this morning.  Had a great time practicing with my Sig X5 with holster and mag pouches from Red Hill Tactical.