Paul-the new guy Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 since the CDP shooters are not competing against the ESP shooters why should the scores be listed together and on and on. It is the same match so the scores should be together. Maybe the seniors and super seniors and ladies and LEO and military should all be broken out into separate matches... I desire to compete against everyone and I desire to win. I don't want to see my name at the top of 10 shooters I want to see it at the top of 70 shooters. Many don't have that desire and I respect that but I and many others do. Many shoot for nothing other than they like it and I appreciate them and will happily run them. As I age I become less able to be at the top but I am not to the point yet of not trying to be there. I appreciate people that put in the time to be MD's and put matches together but I think some tend to think of it as "their" match and that simply isn't the case. My opinion is we need to draw in shooters and grow the shooting sports by being very inclusive. Many clubs tend to be cliquish. That said, I am not a MD nor do I want to be. One mans opinion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillR1 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Paul-the new guy said: since the CDP shooters are not competing against the ESP shooters why should the scores be listed together and on and on. In all pistol divisions, the standard stage procedures are followed. They all have to draw from a holster, use concealment when required, reload after 6-10 rounds, face uprange when required, shoot with only one hand on the gun when required, etc. A rifle shooter has to do none of these actions. Their score should not be included with the pistol shooters who DO have to follow all of the stage procedures as written. There is simply no comparison. Rifles don't shoot the "same match" as pistol shooters. Edited January 24, 2019 by BillR1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul-the new guy Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 But you don’t look at the unfiltered results so why should it matter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillR1 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 16 minutes ago, Paul-the new guy said: But you don’t look at the unfiltered results so why should it matter But you're only competing against other PCCs...shouldn't the scores reflect that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul-the new guy Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 Then every division and every class should be separate... this is a stupid argument. The match should be scored as one match and you can look at the scores however you want. It is the same match. Just stop getting butt hurt that a rifle is allowed in “your” match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillR1 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 1 minute ago, Paul-the new guy said: Then every division and every class should be separate... this is a stupid argument. The match should be scored as one match and you can look at the scores however you want. It is the same match. Just stop getting butt hurt that a rifle is allowed in “your” match. How can you even remotely say it's the "same match" when rifle shooters don't have to follow even close to the same stage procedures as any pistol shooter? You give someone a faster car AND give them a head start...and the scores should all be lumped together?? I think the people running this year's Worlds have the right idea...a separate match with separate scores. This just makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul-the new guy Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 10 minutes ago, BillR1 said: This just makes sense. To you. They may very well have done it to generate more revenue. People may now have the option to shoot more than one division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillR1 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 22 minutes ago, Paul-the new guy said: To you. They may very well have done it to generate more revenue. People may now have the option to shoot more than one division. That could very well be their reasoning. In any case, it worked out well and is a good model for running rifles in IDPA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul-the new guy Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 3 minutes ago, BillR1 said: That could very well be their reasoning. In any case, it worked out well and is a good model for running rifles in IDPA. I agree, when it is a different match on a different day. You should try PCC, it is fun. Great chatting with you. Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillR1 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Paul-the new guy said: I agree, when it is a different match on a different day. You should try PCC, it is fun. Not gonna lie...it does look like fun! However, in all honesty I would not want my PCC score to appear mixed in with the pistol shooters that didn't get all of the advantages that I did shooting the stages. I like competition and winning as much as anyone, but that would feel like "cheating" to me. Like you said earlier, you don't have to be a good shooter to finish on top with a PCC. I wouldn't feel like I earned the win, but that I bought it instead. No thanks. I want to win, but not like that. Edited January 24, 2019 by BillR1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RH45 Posted January 24, 2019 Author Share Posted January 24, 2019 When PCC was a provisional division in USPSA, a lot of the local guys were shooting pistol & PCC at the same match, and their placement was pretty much the same, but now that IDPA adds a full second, for every point down, I believe most people can shoot a PCC more accurately, at the same speed of their pistols. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 23 hours ago, Paul-the new guy said: Downloaded starts are silly, as are weird start positions. What I think evens the playing field is tight shooting positions with close targets. Throw in some hard cover and a guy trying to go fast can get tripped up. Put good PCC shooters on the same squad and as they race each other the PD's add up. Drawing to a 3-5 yard target from behind a barricade -vs- coming up from the muzzle on the barricade to the same target has to be about the same for better shooters. Small windows or shooting positions with close targets, wide transitions and no shoots mixed in I think slows down the PCC shooters also. The egdge will still go to PCC's for the most part. I hope they don't change the rules up too much as they move forward. I broke some bones in my wrist and hand and arthritis moved in so I don't do as well with a pistol anymore. PCC has brought the fun back for me in all the disciplines not just IDPA I'm okay with downloaded starts, my club does it pretty regularly. Start with 6 in the gun on a 16-18 round stage and people have to reload twice, and might have to think about it. Doing like Bill mentioned and have all mags downloaded to 10 is dumb imo. Same with making them run off some where to get their gun. If you're doing all that you probably should just not allow PCC at your club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 Because IDPA, I will ask this with a straight face. Someone who is trying to kill you is across the room, 10 yards away. You have two loaded guns on a table in front of you, a PCC with 30 rounds and red dot sight, and a service pistol with 10 rounds and iron sights. Which do you choose? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 The PCC is pretty surprising, i had figured at closer range and in tight quarters a reasonably skilled person would be faster with a handgun.. Based on the PCC stuff, looks like I had thought wrong. Although I have run plate racks with a lever action carbine and was surprised how easy and fast it was, even with having to cock lever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul-the new guy Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 Flagler found the cure for all things IDPA score related. Randomized results??? Kind of like everyone gets a trophy! (this was some kind of glitch and this post is meant to be funny) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillR1 Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 On 1/25/2019 at 2:02 PM, rowdyb said: Because IDPA, I will ask this with a straight face. Someone who is trying to kill you is across the room, 10 yards away. You have two loaded guns on a table in front of you, a PCC with 30 rounds and red dot sight, and a service pistol with 10 rounds and iron sights. Which do you choose? As I'm sure you're aware, your theoretical scenario is not what IDPA is about. From the rulebook... "1.1 IDPA’s Fundamental Principles The Fundamental Principles are a guide to all members. A. Promote safe and proficient use of firearms and equipment suitable for concealed carry self-defense." also... "1.2 Principles of Shooting IDPA 1.2.1 Equipment Principles Allowed equipment will meet the following criteria: A. Concealable: All equipment (except flashlights) will be placed so that it is not visible while wearing a concealment garment, with your arms extended to your sides, parallel to the ground. B. Practical: All equipment must be practical for all day concealed carry self-defense, and worn in a manner that is appropriate for all day continuous wear." A rifle on a table in front of you is not concealed carry self defense, but you knew that. To answer your question, I'd take the rifle if the targets were 10 yards away and I had equal access to both a rifle and a pistol. But again, that would be a rare occurrence in real life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul-the new guy Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 2 hours ago, BillR1 said: As I'm sure you're aware, your theoretical scenario is not what IDPA is about. From the rulebook... "1.1 IDPA’s Fundamental Principles Allowed equipment will meet the following criteria: A. Concealable: All equipment (except flashlights) will be placed so that it is not visible while wearing a concealment garment, with your arms extended to your sides, parallel to the ground. A rifle on a table in front of you is not concealed carry self defense, but you knew that. To answer your question, I'd take the rifle if the targets were 10 yards away and I had equal access to both a rifle and a pistol. But again, that would be a rare occurrence in real life. That is probably going to change in the new rule book... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillR1 Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 25 minutes ago, Paul-the new guy said: That is probably going to change in the new rule book... That's unfortunate, but completely necessary if rifles will be allowed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mariano Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 Just want to know why pcc was included in idpa matches since it cannot be concealed although its a pistol csliber Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 (edited) On 3/1/2021 at 8:26 PM, Mariano said: Just want to know why pcc was included in idpa matches since it cannot be concealed although its a pistol csliber The cynical view is because Wilson Combat started making one. The slightly less cynical one is the argument( made in print by someone associated with WC) is the question, "which would you rather grab in the middle of the night? a pcc or a pistol?" Thus a pcc is a legitimate home defense choice so works in a nominally defensive shooting game. Personally I think it was only a reaction to an emerging market trend and that alone. Also maybe 15% of idpa is applicable to an actual defensive shooting or what people do in "real life". It is simply a different type of LARPing with guns. Edited March 3, 2021 by rowdyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doge Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 Last IDPA rulebook was in 2017 with appendix/suppliments for Carry Optics and PCC. Hopefully they'll change it, I remember when PCC was made for USPSA people commented on the rifle at a pistol match etc. But USPSA's scoring scales a bit better across all divisions vs IDPA. Idealist me likes that PCC allows shooters who have a hard time with a pistol be able to participate in the sport but then again you'll have competitive people gaming it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 7 minutes ago, Doge said: Last IDPA rulebook was in 2017 with appendix/suppliments for Carry Optics and PCC. Hopefully they'll change it, I remember when PCC was made for USPSA people commented on the rifle at a pistol match etc. But USPSA's scoring scales a bit better across all divisions vs IDPA. Idealist me likes that PCC allows shooters who have a hard time with a pistol be able to participate in the sport but then again you'll have competitive people gaming it. At some matches it can certainly be a quick way to move up to the top in the overall standings. I shot a indoor level 2 match a while back that had 5 stages in the dark. With a rifle and a dot, 30 round mags, and a flashlight attached to the gun in the dark even career Sharpshooters picked up a PCC and beat MA level pistol shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doge Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 8 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said: At some matches it can certainly be a quick way to move up to the top in the overall standings. I shot a indoor level 2 match a while back that had 5 stages in the dark. With a rifle and a dot, 30 round mags, and a flashlight attached to the gun in the dark even career Sharpshooters picked up a PCC and beat MA level pistol shooters. Hahahaha, yeah I've shot matches like that at some clubs. You are correct, those dark stages where you need a light if you're shooting a pistol vs a pcc with light you're chasing a car with a bicycle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Watson Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 I used to complain about "shooting a rifle in a pistol match" but have gotten over it. It is just a gimmick to sell guns and increase match entries. I have the perception that PCC has tapered off or at least leveled out. But if you haven't got a Carry Optic, you just aren't With It. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 31 minutes ago, Jim Watson said: I used to complain about "shooting a rifle in a pistol match" but have gotten over it. It is just a gimmick to sell guns and increase match entries. I have the perception that PCC has tapered off or at least leveled out. But if you haven't got a Carry Optic, you just aren't With It. My local club doesn't allow PCC anyway. Now CO has exploded and I couldn't tell you the last time someone was HOA with a iron sight gun, and typically only 1 or 2 iron sight guys break the top ten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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