Limited Pro Tuning Pains

[ammo_baron]

8 hours ago, ryridesmotox said:

People have done pencil tests to see how hard the various combos hit. The heavier pins are slower, but hit harder... Both ideally should light off a primer but sometimes the henning wont. Would you rather get hit my a F1 car doing 180mph or a 40 ton freightliner doing 80mph? The reason for this is because there is a firing pin spring. The spring slows the pin down quicker because it is lighter. Part of my problems with the henning pin were solved when I started clipping spring coils. But notice I said part... not all the problems went away. IMHO, lock time doesn't have much of an effect when dealing with a pin that has a spring attached. In something like an AR with a free floating pin, you want to hit the primer with a pin moving as fast as possible, and to speed up lock time, and thereby cyclic rate, a lighter hammer and spring makes sense. but with the sprung pins, you are now taking that F1 car and hitting the brakes and slowing it down to 60... the 40 ton freightliner slows down to 70 in the same length of time/distance because there is far more mass. Like I said, I polished and fitted (sanded, stoned) the block and the pin. Nothing helped and after much time wasted, I shelved the henning. I tried to give it a fair shake and tried to get it to run well. but it wouldn't. I would have accepted 90% ignition, couldn't even get to there with it

 

The F1/truck comparison is obviously an oversimplification... don't read too much into it.

That makes sense.

[B_RAD]

You jinxed me!

 

 

I had four total. The first one I immediately pulled the DA trigger again. All went off on the second DA pull. 

 

I DIDNT plunk the rounds fired yesterday. Didn't have time and thought "nothing has changed on my 1050 so I should be good". I did put them in the Hundo so they did pass that. 

 

 

The weird thing is I cranked down the seating adjustment on my 1050 right before loading  this batch of 200.  The previous 200 rnds I've fired thru this gun with S&B (all DA pulls) went off 100%.  

The strikes are off center. So, first thought is chamber issue?

 

Though, I did install the EFB with no fitting. It dropped in. I tested several times. Pencil test is the same as before and the block works with hammer cocked. 

 

I polished the ext FBP before install. And removed it after range trip.  Didn't see any wear from the 400 +\-trigger pulls (dry/live) since I've put it in.

 

I did remove the barrel and try after they failed the first time and of course they plunked!

 

so,..... since I didn't plunk before the range trip, I can't cross off the chamber being the problem!

But it could be seating depth or EX FPB. 

 

Edited January 16, 2017 by B_RAD

[IronArcher]

So, got to try again with the PDO firing pin and #13 spring.
Probably about 20% light hits in DA (and a few in SA).
Put in my Wolf #14 hammer spring.
Somewhat better but still around 10% light strikes.
With the Henning pin and #14 Wolf spring, this gun ran 100%.
I suspect that while the PDO pin is the cats @$$ for a Titan hammer, it may be too heavy for the Delta/heart hammer.
The Henning pin makes use of the faster speed of the Delta hammer, while the PDO transfers the momentum of the Titan hammer best.

I had the firing pin block completely removed to ensure it wasn't interfering.

Also noticed that my FPB doesn't work at all anyway with my BOLO, so I'll be ordering an extended FPB and a #14 PDO hammer spring for the next round of tests.

NOTE: NONE of this is to reflect negatively on the PDO parts. I am using some parts that were not designed to work with others.

I wish I had the money for the Titan and a new BOLO, but I don't, so I need to find cheap ways to get this thing 100%.

[IronArcher]

Got to the range again. this time with the Henning pin.
Improved results... 100% SA with the Aguila, 97% DA.
DA with the Perfecta was 88%, I ran out before doing enough SA to come up with an accurate number... I did have at least 1 light SA hit with the Perfecta.

NOTE: Previously I had mentioned that I was 100% with the #14 wolf and Henning pin.
While I don't remember any failures with this set-up previously, I did not do 100 round tests to check.
Also, the Wolf spring IS 1 year old.... maybe 5000-7000 rounds... guessing here based on ammo I remember buying LOL!

Putting the trigger on a scale, even with the #14 spring, I am seeing roughly #2.5 SA, and #5.5 DA (5.75 pulling slow, 5.25+ pulling quickly).

With those numbers, I feel comfortable looking at the new PDO #15.5 spring.

Short term, I'm going to do some math, and take some measurements. Then insert a spacer on top of the #14 spring.


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[IronArcher]

Grabbed some small (2.5mm) washers today.
Seems 3 of them gives an extra #1 of preload.
[emoji1303]
Got some trigger pull weights. Now running the modified #14 Wolf with my preload washers, I'm getting about 6.25 DA and get this... still about 2.25 SA!
Now again, this isn't a nice digital gauge, but it can be calibrated.
The SA is too light to lift the 43oz gun, so I must be close.
One pull was #2 even!
Honestly, I'd gladly go up a pound of SA if that meant I could go down #1 DA. But it is still pretty dang smooth!
Did more testing with a new media.
4.75" sections of a plastic coat hanger.
The rubber eraser on a pencil just didn't seem to hold up at all.
These give reliable, repeatable results over and over again.
Going back and forth between the PDO and the Henning, was actually frustrating.
No "clear" winner (remember, this is still with the lighter Delta hammer that I suspect favors the Henning).
Both reliably launched the test rods about 6'!
DA was about 5.5.
To measure, I just kept moving lower until the best shots could still touch the ceiling.
On each run there was always a little variability. On paper, the Henning was theoretically ahead, but the best PDO was always better than the worst Henning on 3 shot groups.
Honestly, the PDO gave the single best test shot.
Sadly, this doesn't seem to be a great predictor of performance.
I think my next test is going to be hitting some soft metal and measuring the divot.
Next time at the range, I'm going to be careful to save my brass and measure the divots left on each round.
I am now again questioning my theory as to the Delta hammer possibly preferring the Lighter Henning.
Was REALLY hoping I would see a clear winner... I did not.
More research!!!

[MemphisMechanic]

Unfortunately the only way to truly set your gun up seems to be firing about 500 rounds in DA (that's a lot of decocking) with various combinations installed. Like yourself, I found pencil tests very inconclusive.

I like the idea of a coat hanger projectile - that's brilliant.

I ended up deciding shooting is more fun than 'tuning' and just threw an EGD Medium spring in there. It's at 7lbs DA but I haven't missed on the first round from the holster in the past two matches. My gun has run 100% through those stages while you lads are at home tinkering with a torn-down gun trying to shave a pound of trigger weight.

I'll try the 14# Wolff spring on my next range trip, but on the first light strike I'll be back to the EGD Medium spring.. at least until PD comes out with a 15.5lb spring!

I'm fine with my current pull weight, I just want to get rid of the stacking at the back of it. Hoping one of those two springs will do the trick!

(Oh, and all I do is check for below-flush primers, then pick a round with a deeply-seated primer to load as the top round in my "load and make ready" mag.)

Edited January 24, 2017 by MemphisMechanic

[B_RAD]

^^^^^That last part is good! I thought about doing that too. 

 

If a guy realy wanted to be anal, he'd measure up twice as many stages as the match will have, mark them, and keep them separate from the rest. A Rx bottle would hold a few and you could just keep that in the box with your other ammo. 

[MemphisMechanic]

26 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

If a guy realy wanted to be anal, he'd measure up twice as many stages as the match will have, mark them, and keep them separate from the rest. A Rx bottle would hold a few and you could just keep that in the box with your other ammo. 

That's basically what I do. My match ammo goes into three 100rd storage boxes after leaving the hundo. Now they're all primer-up in ten neat little rows.

Then I find the ten deepest primers and move them to the very back row in each box.  

I use those 30 rounds for classifiers and for round #1 on all the other stages.

Edited January 24, 2017 by MemphisMechanic

[mfs]

So far I love the tanfo shooting 

I don't like all of the fiddling.  I'm agreeing with MM and going to quit tinkering and keep some bullets with federal primers for the top round in the mag.  Using winchester primers I'm getting 100% on SA.  Almost as good on DA.  With Federal 100% Da.

I went with the wolfe 14 lb main spring and it seems to be a step in the right direction

Currently no FPB installed.  Will go back to that when satisfied with reliability

 

 

[SCTaylor]

2 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:

My gun has run 100% through those stages while you lads are at home tinkering with a torn-down gun trying to shave a pound of trigger weight.

Hello Pot! hehe

[OPENB]

I just picked up a used LimPro that supposedly has had a Titan hammer, Henning long pin, and BOLO. The hammer appears to actually be a Delta, but oh well. I have a metric crap ton of minor ammo loaded with S&B pistol primers that my Glock 34 with DK trigger and 4# hammer spring would eat all day. With the LimPro, DA is 90% light hits, SA is 100%. So, I loaded a couple hundred rounds with my small stock of Federal primers to be my "top of the mag" ammo. LAMR gets a Federal in the chamber, S&B behind it. Not a perfect solution, but it'll get me through until I sort out the light hits.

[rowdyb]

On 1/14/2017 at 10:18 PM, ammo_baron said:

That's something I have been meaning to ask about as well. The Henning pin is lightened, fluted and hardened. Patriot and Xtreme pins are heavier. I went with the Henning because lighter and faster made more sense in my brain. I also had success with the Zev Skeletonized striker when I was shooting Glock. Seems like they're trying to accomplish the same goal by doing the opposite. I'd love for someone to do the math on which one actually hits with more force.

f=ma. increase the m part of the equation with the heavier fp others recommended.

and though you said they were seated deep enough, seat the primers even deeper.

[MemphisMechanic]

17 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

...And although you said they were seated deep enough, seat the primers even deeper.

Not all of us load on a press that gives you that control.

With a shim cut from a piece of a 1/4" fender washer under the primer punch, a Dillon 650 doesn't seat primers any deeper than it did from the factory.

Dillon and Hornady subscribed to the "flush is good" design criteria, and that's all you get.

Until I buy a 1050, which will be a couple of years, I'm just running more hammer spring than most people seem to want to.

Edited January 24, 2017 by MemphisMechanic

[rowdyb]

^^ yep, that works too! and you get reliable ignition! (and in the cz crowd i run more hammer spring than most do as well. everyone loves the 8 and 11# cajun ones and i just run a 13# one)

Edited January 24, 2017 by rowdyb

[IronArcher]

By increasing M, you will decrease A.
Also you need to run the equation twice. Once for hammer, once for pin.
I think there needs to be a balance.
The slow heavy hammer won't transfer as much to the light pin as it would the heavier pin.
The lighter faster hammer will have more trouble accelerating the heavy pin.
The slow heavy hammer works better with a heavy pin that the hammer can accelerate without issue.
The light, fast hammer works better with a pin that can be accelerated easier.

The golf club will hit the golf ball farther than a sledge hammer will.
The sledge hammer will hit the bowling ball farther than the golf club will.

Seems clear the optimal solution is the Titan hammer and PDO pin. When I get the disposable income, PD will be getting an order for a Titan and a new BOLO to match.
Until then, I need to find what works best with my hammer... at the moment, that SEEMS to be the Henning pin.





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[ArrDave]

43 minutes ago, IronArcher said:

The golf club will hit the golf ball farther than a sledge hammer will.
The sledge hammer will hit the bowling ball farther than the golf club will.
 

That's a really fun mental image. 

[johnbu]

All true, but... the light components will slow faster from friction.   since the goal is "bang", do what it takes to get there.  My guns seem to like a 14# spring, titan hammer and heavy FP.  YMMV as they say. 

With set hardware,increase springs until it's reliable and go.  At every major cleaning, polish a bit better and recheck reliability.  There's decent evidence the guns will drop a pound-ish on the DA after they are run in for a few thousand rounds too.

But the biggest issue affecting reliability with weak springs is primer depth. If you get them 0.006" below flush, they pop easily. Even eith light springs. But if you throw a high primer at random.... it can ruin a stage.

 

 

 

 

8 hours ago, IronArcher said:

By increasing M, you will decrease A.
Also you need to run the equation twice. Once for hammer, once for pin.
I think there needs to be a balance.
The slow heavy hammer won't transfer as much to the light pin as it would the heavier pin.
The lighter faster hammer will have more trouble accelerating the heavy pin.
The slow heavy hammer works better with a heavy pin that the hammer can accelerate without issue.
The light, fast hammer works better with a pin that can be accelerated easier.

The golf club will hit the golf ball farther than a sledge hammer will.
The sledge hammer will hit the bowling ball farther than the golf club will.

Seems clear the optimal solution is the Titan hammer and PDO pin. When I get the disposable income, PD will be getting an order for a Titan and a new BOLO to match.
Until then, I need to find what works best with my hammer... at the moment, that SEEMS to be the Henning pin.





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[IronArcher]

Yep! Just waiting for PD's new hammer spring.
Someday, I'll get the Titan and then get full use out of the PDO pin.
Next test is just going to be my shimmed #14 and swapping the pins to see if there is any noticeable difference between them with my Delta hammer.
To be fair, until one is 100% DA on my Perfecta ammo and the other is not, I can't say there is a "winner". Just 2 unacceptable results (not based on pin alone).

IF the new spring shows 100% reliability with BOTH pins, I'll likely run the PDO as it looks nearly indestructible.

Ironically, even with the #13 PDO spring, it was 100% with CCI ammo. I just HATE that ammo (failures to extract).


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[johnbu]

I like your plan. Get to 100% reliability. Do what it takes.

Question. Did you plunk test a couple boxes of the perfecta? I haven't run it, but have seen other store bought ammo with enough variation to randomly fail plunk and primer depth.

Here's one i found yesterday. Store bought. Everything can go fubar, it was spotted at mag load.

Edited January 25, 2017 by johnbu
add pic

[IronArcher]

I guess I'll have to start paying attention to that.
All I have are pics AFTER the light strikes... they look good there... but if course they could have been pushed in by the light hit.


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[johnbu]

I was thinking about a method of testing light strikes and  primer motion. Difficult as the primers back out of the hole, then the brass moving back replace them.

[IronArcher]

More testing today.
#14 with shims:
Henning FP)
Agulia 100% DA AND SA!!!
Perfecta)
~90% DA, and 95% SA.

PDO pin:
Perfecta)
88-90% DA
Did not test SA or Agulia after that.

NOTE: This was the first test that on EVERY light strike, a follow up DA hit fired the round.
Previously, I had rounds that wouldn't go off with MULTIPLE hits in DA or SA.... so improvement there!

All primers were visually inspected for uniform depth.

Test conditions:
25 degrees F (brrrr!)
Gun was pretty damn dirty (yes, looking for the gun to function 100% in all weather and conditions... including dirty gun).

Hooray!!! Agulia 100%
Boo!!!! Perfecta primers make CCI primers look like the red paper ammo for a snap gun!

Next test will likely be reliability testing with Winchester white box 115gn.

Test after that. Perfecta w/PDO 15.5# spring.

Side note:
Set my fastest draw and fire into -0 zone at .85
Best 4 Aces (on IDPA target) at 2.56 seconds... all from DA w/safety on. Need to work on reloads.

[IronArcher]

Anyone have any data showing light strike differences in warm (65+) vs cold (32-) vs hot (85+)?

[IHAVEGAS]

On 1/20/2017 at 5:39 PM, IronArcher said:

I suspect that while the PDO pin is the cats @$$ for a Titan hammer, it may be too heavy for the Delta/heart hammer.
The Henning pin makes use of the faster speed of the Delta hammer, while the PDO transfers the momentum of the Titan hammer best.

 

 

Speaking of light strikes & firing pins. Pin on left is oem on a stock 2 purchased in September 17, pin on the right is oem on a stock 2 purchased in June 17.

 

Pin on right (my main gun) is 0.015" shorter than pin on left, I do not know if the pin in my main gun is effectively shorter than when new due to what looks like it might be deformation at point of contact with hammer or if it was always shorter. 

 

For what it is worth, got to investigating as my main gun has started getting occasional light strikes after working well for , I dunno, maybe 5000 rounds ish. 

 

I'm guessing that Tanfo sources the pins from a couple different supplies due to obvious design differences, weight was 99.1 grams versus 100.8 grams. 

 

Aftermarket pin on order from PD (wish they would hurry up and get their own design back in stock). 

[pskys2]

It could be shaved pieces from the coated bullets cushioning the fp impact.

Shavings can be caused by not belling case enough or hitting something on the way into the chamber.