PCC Rules Contradiction

[Sarge]

Should this rule be dropped since it's obviously no longer valid. Perhaps addressed at least given PCC is still provisional?

1. 6.1.3  Match – Consists of a minimum of 2 stages. The total sum of individual stage results will be accumulated to declare a match winner. A match must include only one type of firearm (e.g. handgun, shotgun or rifle). 

[rhett45acp]

Are you referring to the breach birth division PCC?  This thing that allows rifles in pistol matches?  The child that brought us 1/2 sized targets, BS start positions and WH/SH indifferent shooting?

Yep, that would be a rule oversight for sure.  6.1.3 RIP and along with 50% of the rule book now that rifles are the new golden boy of USPSA.   I am ready for a no holster rule for pistols.  Start position with handgun at low ready.  Yeah baby.  Just like GSSF.  Easy for everyone to understand.

Yes, a bit sarcastic and I have openly been lukewarm on the whole PCC thing, but I still get a funny feeling about PCC.  The same feeling you have when you know things will never be the same.  I am very much pro change and even short term disruptive change.   I am willing to embrace and see the long range outcome. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Brooke]

Does seem like 6.1.3 may have been overlooked when revisions were considered. Probably needs fixing.

That however does not justify the outburst above^^. Some competitors shooting PCC has no effect on those who are sticking to pistols. Lighten up for God's sake. It's not important.

Edited January 15, 2017 by Brooke

[Sarge]

Maybe a little over the top, but I do agree with Rhett on one thing. I also worry about where the addition of PCC will ultimately take the sport.

 As an example, remember the original line that PCC won't change the way we design stages? I have to take my PCC with me when I set up the Ohio State match to insure all stages are fair to PCC shooters. This will drastically reduce the challenge for pistol shooters on many of the stages. 

 

Edited January 15, 2017 by Sarge

[StealthyBlagga]

10 minutes ago, Sarge said:

... I have to take my PCC with me when I set up the Ohio State match to show to insure all stages are fair to PCC shooters...

 

Which rule requires you to do this?

As a PCC shooter, I don't expect a handgun match stage designer to change their designs in any way, except to add an appropriate, rules-compliant, PCC-specific start position (which has no impact on handgunners). Hard leans, one-handed hanging off ropes.... bring it on. I know I am a guest in your house, and do not ask for any special treatment.

Edited January 15, 2017 by StealthyBlagga

[Nimitz]

4 hours ago, rhett45acp said:

Are you referring to the breach birth division PCC?  This thing that allows rifles in pistol matches?  The child that brought us 1/2 sized targets, BS start positions and WH/SH indifferent shooting?

Yep, that would be a rule oversight for sure.  6.1.3 RIP and along with 50% of the rule book now that rifles are the new golden boy of USPSA.   I am ready for a no holster rule for pistols.  Start position with handgun at low ready.  Yeah baby.  Just like GSSF.  Easy for everyone to understand.

Yes, a bit sarcastic and I have openly been lukewarm on the whole PCC thing, but I still get a funny feeling about PCC.  The same feeling you have when you know things will never be the same.  I am very much pro change and even short term disruptive change.   I am willing to embrace and see the long range outcome. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Come on over to Steel Challenge ... we shoot pistols at the low ready all the time  .....

Of course we also have the PCC division so maybe you don't want to come over ................

[Sarge]

41 minutes ago, StealthyBlagga said:

Which rule requires you to do this?

 

Range Master Instructions.

[rhett45acp]

6 hours ago, Brooke said:

Does seem like 6.1.3 may have been overlooked when revisions were considered. Probably needs fixing.

That however does not justify the outburst above^^. Some competitors shooting PCC has no effect on those who are sticking to pistols. Lighten up for God's sake. It's not important.

Did you read this part?  "Yes, a bit sarcastic and I have openly been lukewarm on the whole PCC thing".   It was a bit over the top for sure.

I do stand on the point things will NOT be the same.  Do you Remember when dots and comps starting coming in?  Things were never the same.  I think PCC is going to have another shift effect.   Sorry, It is important, for I think it is a game changer.  However, I will work on lighting up. :-)

 

[mikev49]

23 hours ago, StealthyBlagga said:

Which rule requires you to do this?

As a PCC shooter, I don't expect a handgun match stage designer to change their designs in any way, except to add an appropriate, rules-compliant, PCC-specific start position (which has no impact on handgunners). Hard leans, one-handed hanging off ropes.... bring it on. I know I am a guest in your house, and do not ask for any special treatment.

I agree completely that the PCC shooters are not looking for any preferencial treatment.  They need to learn how to navigate everything in the stage with that gun.  If you start changing the stage for PCC guns your going to make it easier for open guns and that means its "not fair" to them either.  PCC guys want this thing to work, they need to make it fit within the confines of the game as it is.  As a match director I have been allowing people to shoot rifles on our stages after the match as a just for fun thing for over 2 years now and other than the fact that they don't shoot the steel, it has never been a problem.  Now that there is pcc, they just shoot the match at teh same time and we run everyone at once, no issues.  

[Sarge]

20 minutes ago, mikev49 said:

I agree completely that the PCC shooters are not looking for any preferencial treatment.  They need to learn how to navigate everything in the stage with that gun. 

Well obviously, this isn't entirely true or DNROI would not have made the PCC changes to classifiers. There are things that can be done with a handgun that can not be done with a rifle. Always will be. It's easier to weaken the standards instead of creating dangerous situations for a rifle in many peoples eyes. 

[Patrick Scott]

On 1/14/2017 at 5:13 PM, Sarge said:

Should this rule be dropped since it's obviously no longer valid. Perhaps addressed at least given PCC is still provisional?

1. 6.1.3  Match – Consists of a minimum of 2 stages. The total sum of individual stage results will be accumulated to declare a match winner. A match must include only one type of firearm (e.g. handgun, shotgun or rifle). 

From the PCC Rules Addendum:

"All references to “handgun” in the current edition of the rule book are deemed to apply to PCC as well, except where PCC is noted in the rules."

 

There ya go, fixed  

In seriousness, it should be looked at. 

[Sarge]

15 minutes ago, Patrick Scott said:

From the PCC Rules Addendum:

"All references to “handgun” in the current edition of the rule book are deemed to apply to PCC as well, except where PCC is noted in the rules."

 

There ya go, fixed  

In seriousness, it should be looked at. 

Just one of the contradictions. 

[mikev49]

5 hours ago, Sarge said:

Well obviously, this isn't entirely true or DNROI would not have made the PCC changes to classifiers. There are things that can be done with a handgun that can not be done with a rifle. Always will be. It's easier to weaken the standards instead of creating dangerous situations for a rifle in many peoples eyes. 

Please elaborate.  Other than facing uprange/ turn and draw. What is in the classifiers that is too dangerous?  

[Sarge]

40 minutes ago, mikev49 said:

Please elaborate.  Other than facing uprange/ turn and draw. What is in the classifiers that is too dangerous?  

Nothing. I was talking about shooting around walls etc. as an example it's one thing to have to shoot a pistol one handed but another altogether to Have a PCC shooter go one handed.

[AWLAZS]

On 1/15/2017 at 0:04 PM, Sarge said:

Range Master Instructions.

Are you saying USPSA has told RMs to make sure the USPSA matches are set up to accommodate the PCC guys even though they insisted they wanted to shoot the stages the way they were? 

[Thomas H]

6 hours ago, Sarge said:

Nothing. I was talking about shooting around walls etc. as an example it's one thing to have to shoot a pistol one handed but another altogether to Have a PCC shooter go one handed.

But what you said was:
"Well obviously, this isn't entirely true or DNROI would not have made the PCC changes to classifiers. There are things that can be done with a handgun that can not be done with a rifle. Always will be. It's easier to weaken the standards instead of creating dangerous situations for a rifle in many peoples eyes."

I'm not sure how standards for other pistol divisions have changed in the slightest with respect to classifiers (since no changes have been made) and I'm not sure how standards for PCC have been weakened since we didn't have any prior to this.

PCC shooters, in classifiers, all have to shoot it a certain way, and that way was added to the classifiers (which, I'll note, did not change the classifiers for anyone else).  How is this weakening the standards?  (Especially once USPSA HQ gets some data and adjusts the classifier HHF for PCC divisions, which is something, I'll note, that people have been telling them to do for OTHER divisions for quite some time?) 

[Sarge]

I guess I confused everybody. The fact that classifiers were changed for PCC really doesn't matter. Lowering standards refers to eliminating very hard leans etc because some can not physically be done with a rifle while staying inside the shooting area.

 Also why I need to proof my state stages with a PCC. I can't make them undoable with a rifle.

Edited January 17, 2017 by Sarge

[rhett45acp]

OK, I have to have a little fun with this and another "outburst".   "shotgun"???

That would be cool to add a shotgun division.  We just need to work on the rules around slugs on steel and bird shot on paper.  Yep, really don't want to change the rule about a stage requires at leas one paper target.  Or do we?  Why do we need paper anyway.  We can be more environmentally friendly and use only steel?

Oh wait - don't we have something else.  SC?  3Gun?   To meet these "needs"?

Sarge is very right about this issue.  We can sugar coat it all you want.  I can't think of anyway as a MD you do not have PCC in the back of your head while designing  stages.   It's human nature and IMHO good due-diligence.  Anything else would be irresponsible.   PCC=Change.  No doubt about it.  The craft will be to figure out if the change is good and does not hurt the long-term balance of the game.  Pointing out a rule issue is part of the process and a good call.

 

 

 

 

[MikeBurgess]

8 hours ago, Sarge said:

I guess I confused everybody. The fact that classifieds were changed for PCC really doesn't matter. Lowering standards refers to eliminating very hard leans etc because some can not physically be done with a rifle while staying inside the shooting area.

 Also why I need to proof my state stages with a PCC. I can't make them undoable with a rifle.

Un-doable with a conventionally shouldered long gun, or un-doable with the but stock hooked in your elbow one handed with a long gun?

I ask because I believe the second option is what the PCC shooters have asked for and it is roughly equal to what a pistol shooter can do, therefore the stages would remain undiluted. 

IMHO If we are proofing stages so they can comfortably be shot with a shouldered long gun then we have definitely gone in the wrong direction.

[ChuckS]

On 1/16/2017 at 9:51 PM, Sarge said:

I guess I confused everybody. The fact that classifieds were changed for PCC really doesn't matter.

 

 

I just looked at the classifieds and they seem pretty much the same as before PCC.

Edited January 18, 2017 by ChuckS

[theWacoKid]

On 1/14/2017 at 5:13 PM, Sarge said:

Should this rule be dropped since it's obviously no longer valid. Perhaps addressed at least given PCC is still provisional?

1. 6.1.3  Match – Consists of a minimum of 2 stages. The total sum of individual stage results will be accumulated to declare a match winner. A match must include only one type of firearm (e.g. handgun, shotgun or rifle). 

Well what took someone so long to catch this rule?  Nice find, Kevin.  

I agree that those that think or say PCC won't change the pistol game are naive or conniving.

I hope the division either fizzles out as a fad or grows so big it can become its own match.  I still just can't understand the appeal and I've tried.

Nevermind the influx of GM's and further watering down of the classification system we're about to have from the uprange start, no reload classifiers.  Yay for getting -1'd on a 3 second stage.

[outerlimits]

Too late now-foley shoved the division up everybody's behind.  

[Nik Habicht]

Could also be creative with stage design -- nothing says that you couldn't have some kind of port that could be opened in a Hard Lean wall -- and restrict the use of said port to PCC division only, to allow them to shoot the "one handed pistol leaning" targets....

[Brooke]

5 hours ago, outerlimits said:

Too late now-foley shoved the division up everybody's behind.  

So have you gotten it out yet? You must be literally butt hurt. Have you been required to shoot PCC? I'll have to say that this sport is full of people that want to make their own rules.

Was it the entire division he stuffed....people and all or just the rules. Maybe it was just the concept that somebody might do something that you don't care about.

[GrumpyOne]

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