MemphisMechanic Posted February 7, 2017 Author Share Posted February 7, 2017 (edited) That sounds a lot like my gun. I just don't have the ability to truly seat primers to the very bottom of the pocket, but this sounds promising. I'm hoping to remove the heavy stacking in the trigger pull with the EGD Medium spring. But I won't exactly complain if half a pound of trigger pull - or more - disappears. Edited February 7, 2017 by MemphisMechanic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emjei Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 The Xtreme Medium gives a 7# DA on my S2......PD 15.5 sounds great in ordet to go back to the 6ishSent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnbu Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 3 hours ago, PatriotDefense said: On the trigger pull gauge we had a full 1 pound difference in DA between our 15.5lb spring and the EG medium. As stated before we had no issues eating whatever we put in the gun....... descent polish job, go fast parts, and a properly reamed chamber. I bet it was sweetly smooth all the way back too ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MemphisMechanic Posted February 7, 2017 Author Share Posted February 7, 2017 3 hours ago, emjei said: The Xtreme Medium gives a 7# DA on my S2......PD 15.5 sounds great in ordet to go back to the 6ish I'll let you know how the change affects my trigger pull later this week, hopefully. Patriot stuff usually arrives in 2-3 days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatriotDefense Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 42 minutes ago, johnbu said: I bet it was sweetly smooth all the way back too ! Like Butter!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatriotDefense Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 Ok.... so we spent some time testing the actually Spring Rate of various hammer springs used for our beloved Tanfoglio Pistols. The information below was compiled by taking the average of 3 compression cycles across 3 samples of the same spring. So basically we ended up with 9 compression cycles for each given spring sample (all springs where brand new at the start). Test machine was Chatillon CS-225 Digital force tester with up to date calibration certs. Factory Hammer Spring- Average of 18.8lbs Wolff 13lb Hammer Spring- Average Spring rate of 14.1lbs Wolff 14lb Hammer Spring- Average Spring rate of 14.6lbs Wolff 15lb Hammer Spring- Average Spring rate of 16.6lbs EG Light (13.8lb) Hammer Spring- Average Spring Rate of 14.1lbs EG Medium (15.5) Hammer Spring- Average Spring Rate of 16.5lbs Patriot Defense 10lb Hammer Spring- Average Spring Rate of 9.8lbs Patriot Defense 12lb Hammer Spring- Average Spring Rate of 12.4lbs Patriot Defense 13lb Hammer Spring- Average Spring Rate of 13.2lbs Patriot Defense 14lb Hammer Spring- Average Spring Rate of 13.8lbs Patriot Defense 15.5lb Hammer Spring- Average Spring Rate of 15.1lbs So as you can see some of these spring rates across the various manufacturers are pretty close yet give us totally different feels in the guns. a lot of this has to do with the overall design (length, coil count, wire diameter, ID, OD) of the spring as well as material used. One large factor this doesn't take into consideration is the amount the OD of the spring increases as its compressed, this here is your leading cause of the felt "stacking" in guns. Basically the OD of the spring ends up contacting the spring pocket wall which creates drag and increases the felt trigger pull as your now battling friction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MemphisMechanic Posted February 9, 2017 Author Share Posted February 9, 2017 Were the Wolff springs wildly inconsistent, like their recoil springs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatriotDefense Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 14 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said: Were the Wolff springs wildly inconsistent, like their recoil springs? Oh Ya, they differed by 2-3 coils and had 2-3lb difference between springs of the same model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissionaryMike Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 1 minute ago, PatriotDefense said: Oh Ya, they differed by 2-3 coils and had 2-3lb difference between springs of the same model. That's horrible QC. Now I'm doubting the accuracy of the other Wolff springs in my other platforms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnbu Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 Excellent data and it matches what I've seen exactly with my NIST calibrated trigger finger. The PD product was engineered to be more precise and rated based on reality then manufactured to a higher standard. But they aren't magic, you still need higher quality ammo and a correctly tuned gun to allow the lighter springs to work with 100% reliability. And if you use primers made from pounded out sheets of eastern European tank armor, [cough cough MemphisMechanic! cough cough], you may need even stouter springs. lol. Eagerly awaiting his report on the 15.5's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MemphisMechanic Posted February 9, 2017 Author Share Posted February 9, 2017 (edited) 9 minutes ago, johnbu said: ...primers made from pounded out sheets of eastern European tank armor... Hah! I'm still running regular CCIs. I haven't even switched to the magnum primers yet. Edited February 9, 2017 by MemphisMechanic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B_RAD Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 (edited) 40 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said: Hah! I'm still running regular CCIs. I haven't even switched to the magnum primers yet. You know if you haven't loaded the magnumns, you could sell them...... then buy some normal primers. I cut my PD 10# in half and now have a 2# DA pull. I have to pre dent federals to get them to light off but it's so worth it! ha ha. You know there's someone out there cutting coils off a 10# spring trying to get the lowest DA pull possible. Edited February 9, 2017 by B_RAD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 Interesting that the patriot 14 tests lighter than the EG light. Mine feels heavier and pops primers better than the light. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MemphisMechanic Posted February 9, 2017 Author Share Posted February 9, 2017 (edited) @B_RAD I will at least run a sleeve of them and see if they're any harder than standard CCIs. From what I'm hearing, they aren't. If that's the case then I'll keep them. Edited February 9, 2017 by MemphisMechanic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnbu Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 35 minutes ago, B_RAD said: I cut my PD 10# in half and now have a 2# DA pull. I have to pre dent federals to get them to light off but it's so worth it! ha ha. Springs are so "yesterday" ! I removed the spring and filled the gap in the hammer with helium. Makes weight in CO too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B_RAD Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 12 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said: @B_RAD I will at least run a sleeve of them and see if they're any harder than standard CCIs. From what I'm hearing, they aren't. If that's the case then I'll keep them. I'm just a S&B snob. They seem to be the next best thing to federals. Oh wait,.... scratch that. They suck! Don't buy them! If evyatarts buying them, they'll be as impossible to get as federals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatriotDefense Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 45 minutes ago, johnbu said: Excellent data and it matches what I've seen exactly with my NIST calibrated trigger finger. The PD product was engineered to be more precise and rated based on reality then manufactured to a higher standard. But they aren't magic, you still need higher quality ammo and a correctly tuned gun to allow the lighter springs to work with 100% reliability. And if you use primers made from pounded out sheets of eastern European tank armor, [cough cough MemphisMechanic! cough cough], you may need even stouter springs. lol. Eagerly awaiting his report on the 15.5's. By no means are ours perfect, I'll be revisiting the design of the ones that tested lower than advertised. I would prefer to be slightly higher than the advertised spring rate to give a little room for margin or error in manufacturing. 6 minutes ago, waktasz said: Interesting that the patriot 14 tests lighter than the EG light. Mine feels heavier and pops primers better than the light. Im sure we can run this a few more times with a different batch of springs and get different results. It seemed that the Wolff springs varied greatly between one another, and the EG and PD springs where much closer between the 3 test springs used for that model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MemphisMechanic Posted February 9, 2017 Author Share Posted February 9, 2017 1 hour ago, B_RAD said: I'm just a S&B snob. They seem to be the next best thing to federals. Oh. Really... I had heard the random bitch about them here and there. I might need to buy a few and test-drive them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronArcher Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 (edited) Of course this doesn't take into consideration preload. Lighter springs with more preload will end up with the same ending weight, but start out higher (less stacking)... and give a harder overall hit. Seems PDO springs are a bit longer (HooRAY!). Having those numbers and knowing what the length of the compressed spring is when cocked vs. the length of the uninstalled spring, would give us a max weight number. Then knowing the length of the compressed spring with the hammer at rest would give us a rate of increase (stacking)... of course, any rubbing by springs that open up and hit the wall of the channel wouldn't be in that calculation....but you could then see how much more stacking is due to friction. Just happy to know my #15.5 PDO will be here tomorrow. Edited February 9, 2017 by IronArcher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissionaryMike Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 8 minutes ago, IronArcher said: Of course this doesn't take into consideration preload. Lighter springs with more preload will end up with the same ending weight, but start out higher (less stacking)... and give a harder overall hit. Seems PDO springs are a bit longer (HooRAY!). What do you mean preload? How do you preload a spring? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronArcher Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 Preload is how much a spring is compressed when the hammer is at rest. Spring weights are based on distance compressed (i'm assuming we are talking per inch here #14= #14 per inch) If you have a 5"spring #14 spring, and at rest it is compressed to 4" you have #14 of preload at rest. Add another 1" of travel (cocking) and you add another #14lbs....total of #28 If you have a 10" #4 spring, and put it in the same device, you will end up with #24lbs preload at rest, and #28 at max (cocked) More power as the hammer gets closer to the primer vs the short heavy spring, MUCH less stacking, and the same weight when cocked. Of course these numbers are simplified and not exactly what we are looking at, but the concept is the same. A longer, lighter spring can hit harder, and have less stacking even with the same total weight when cocked as a short heavy spring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronArcher Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 WooHoo!!! It came a day early!Phrasing!!!Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatriotDefense Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 1 hour ago, IronArcher said: Preload is how much a spring is compressed when the hammer is at rest. Spring weights are based on distance compressed (i'm assuming we are talking per inch here #14= #14 per inch) If you have a 5"spring #14 spring, and at rest it is compressed to 4" you have #14 of preload at rest. Add another 1" of travel (cocking) and you add another #14lbs....total of #28 If you have a 10" #4 spring, and put it in the same device, you will end up with #24lbs preload at rest, and #28 at max (cocked) More power as the hammer gets closer to the primer vs the short heavy spring, MUCH less stacking, and the same weight when cocked. Of course these numbers are simplified and not exactly what we are looking at, but the concept is the same. A longer, lighter spring can hit harder, and have less stacking even with the same total weight when cocked as a short heavy spring. pretty much summed it up in a simplified way.... Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronArcher Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 Ok, got mine in.I must say this:HOLY $#|T!!!!!!!!!!My DA AND SA DROPPED!Now I was indeed running the Wolf #14 spring.... and a few 2.5mm washers to add some preload (Perfecta apparently uses Tungsten Carbide for their primers).On my scale, I was showing a BEST of 5.5 DA and 2.0 SA (average was about 5.75 DA 2.3 SA)NOW I am hitting 5.25 DA! And... get this, 1.75 SA! With a best pull of 1.5!!!!!On top of that, MUCH better as far as stacking!!!! The PDO spring was significantly longer (a guess would be 25% longer or more) but it felt like a lower rate (perhaps my Wolf was at their high end for a #14 spring).I can clearly tell there is more power getting to the firing pin even with the lighter pull.The first 1/2 before 1/2 cock was VERY light, but once it got 1/2 way to 1/2 cock, it went up fast. After 1/2 cock it was at least another pound to drop the hammer.Now I start a bit higher, but it is SO smooth! The last half to 1/2 cock it much less dramatic! And from 1/2 cock to hammer fall is like 1/2 a pound!Gonna go and buy some Perfecta and try this out Saturday.I got more Agulia in, but I could run that before. If this will run Perfecta 100% in DA, it will run anything!!!EDIT. After weighing the gun on my scale as a calibration check.The scale was reading just under 1oz light. So make that #5.3 DA #1.8 SA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 Perfecta, aguila? jesus man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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