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Jeff O

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51 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

OP, please share your idpa member number.

You mean the OP that started the thread, asked for comments, then when people don't agree with him he resorts to foul language? Yeah.... that one.

 

Not unfair or unsafe.

Edited by Tarkeg
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On 1/4/2017 at 0:50 AM, IronArcher said:

 


Yes, poor technique.
Attempting to go to 1/2 cock may not have made a difference (or it might have).
Just posting so people could see it happen

 

 

 

 

 




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I guess the DC kept him from getting a PE for taking a sight picture?  Is that even a legal gun?  If this is some kind of Outlaw Match then the data is not valid. ;)

Edited by Pardini
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Yes, poor technique.
Attempting to go to 1/2 cock may not have made a difference (or it might have).
Just posting so people could see it happen




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That's is why I decock like this



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42 minutes ago, Pardini said:

I guess the DC kept him from getting a PE for taking a sight picture?  Is that even a legal gun?  If this is some kind of Outlaw Match then the data is not valid. ;)

Looking at the targets and his shadow without a fishing vest and the fact that RO said "Make Ready", I'd say it is a USPSA match. That gun is legal for both IDPA and USPSA though. 

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Regardless, it shows what can happen when someone attempts to drop the hammer fully down (albeit with poor technique) to get to the proper start condition.
The gun doesn't care if it's IDPA USPSA or outlaw.


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9 hours ago, IronArcher said:

Regardless, it shows what can happen when someone attempts to drop the hammer fully down (albeit with poor technique) to get to the proper start condition.
The gun doesn't care if it's IDPA USPSA or outlaw.


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No one is forced to do this. Shoot a Glock or other striker fired gun. Shoot a gun with a decocker. The never ending internet-of-opinions is insane.

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5 hours ago, Brooke said:

No one is forced to do this. Shoot a Glock or other striker fired gun. Shoot a gun with a decocker. The never ending internet-of-opinions is insane.

I don't really think that is much of an argument---the argument is what is safer for the current circumstances in which a range of guns are allowed, and is "this much safer" commensurate with the "this much of an advantage" with respect to the choices. 

Personally, I think that the current ruleset is as safe as anything else we do--in that proper technique is completely safe, and poor technique is still pretty safe.  You have to really screw up to have an ND, and for that ND to be an actual danger to anyone you have to screw up multiple things simultaneously.

If you are going to shoot a gun (such as one of the CZ variants) that requires you to carefully lower the hammer to the "fully down" position, then part of your practice should be in doing so safely.  Just like anyone working with a single-action firearm needs to practice working the external safety correctly when holstering/moving/drawing and so on.  If you don't want to practice those things, then you should probably pick a different gun.  If you want to shoot that gun, it is up to you to learn how to do so safely--and while IronArcher has shown one example of someone not doing so, I personally don't think lowering only to half-cock (which is only possible on some guns anyway) would make much difference with regard to safety.  IMO.

 

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35 minutes ago, IronArcher said:

If it would make ANY difference (well positive difference, and I contend it would) why not do it?
 

My response would be:  If it isn't making any functional safety difference, then leaving it like it is means that ALL guns will go to the same hammer-fully-down position, as opposed to "some guns will, and some guns won't."  If there is no functional safety difference (and truthfully, I don't think there would be), then keeping it like it is means that all guns start in the exact same fashion. 

Maybe I missed something, but why would it make a positive difference?  Wouldn't the same mistake by the shooter cause the same ND with the gun, either way?

 

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Most people who want to lower it to half cock say it's under the guise of safety, the reality is they lack the skill to pull a DA trigger and are masking their poor technique by fooling around with this type or reasoning.

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Maybe I missed something, but why would it make a positive difference?  Wouldn't the same mistake by the shooter cause the same ND with the gun, either way?

 



Being able to get your finger off of the trigger (which is deactivating the firing pin block) before the hammer gets to 1/2 cock is inherently safer than holding the trigger back until past the 1/2 cock position.


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6 hours ago, IronArcher said:

If it would make ANY difference (well positive difference, and I contend it would) why not do it?



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you are leaving out that while it may be possible that the act of lowering to half cock could be a safer act (I do not believe this myself but ill give it to you for arguments sake) on some guns you now have a gun in a LESS safe condition, cocked, yes not fully but absolutely still cocked, no safety, and possibly no firing pin block. 

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3 minutes ago, IronArcher said:

 


Being able to get your finger off of the trigger (which is deactivating the firing pin block) before the hammer gets to 1/2 cock is inherently safer than holding the trigger back until past the 1/2 cock position.


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I would be willing to bet that if the rules read, as you advocate, allowing half cock on manual decock guns, there would be a large increase in the number of ADs during make ready. Shooters would become complacent and take more risks while dropping hammers because the half cock notch will catch it, right until they mess it up. the fact that the shooter is knowingly pulling the trigger on a live round with no safety and no thought of having a notch in a special place in the hammers movement there to catch it, I belive makes them be very deliberate every time.

 

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...knowingly pulling the trigger on a live round with no safety and no thought of having a notch in a special place in the hammers movement there to catch it,...
 



So make it more dangerous so people are more careful, and that will be safer?

Put finger between hammer and pin. Pull trigger, when you feel the hammer move, take booger picker off of bang switch, finish rolling your finger out as you normally would.

Also many (most... especially competition guns) won't set off the primer from 1/2 cock.


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So..... let's take the life jackets off all the people on the boat and urge them to be more careful. I follow the rule... just don't agree with it. And BTW, I have handed out 3 DQ's for ND's while lowering the hammer (although In fairness two were the same guy twice - he shoots a Glock now). The other was a guy who is now an SSP Master.

Edited by Jeff O
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On 1/5/2017 at 3:57 PM, tanks said:

Looking at the targets and his shadow without a fishing vest and the fact that RO said "Make Ready", I'd say it is a USPSA match. That gun is legal for both IDPA and USPSA though. 

I thought the bushing was a problem in IDPA. 

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Here's my reasoning behind it being a non-issue.

When the gun goes off decocking, it's invariably someone who tries to pinch the hammer down (as in the video above, and the two times I've seen it live) and they lose their grip way back at the rear where the hammer spring has the most force.

Whether they were going to stop at halfcock or proceed to fully down is a non issue - they got their finger on the trigger before they had a good grip on the hammer.

Its going to go bang and result in a DQ either way. Start fully down. Make people learn to shoot the DA pull well. Put the CZ / Tanfo guns in the situation where they were designed to be carried in a holster.

Edited by MemphisMechanic
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Oddly, I carry mine 1/2 cocked and locked. ;)

As mentioned, I follow the rule, I don't think the rule is the best way, I don't think changing it will change how fast and accurate my first shot is, and I'm not asking for a change to be made nor expecting one.
Purely academic for me.


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15 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:

...

Its going to go bang and result in a DQ either way. Start fully down. Make people learn to shoot the DA pull well. Put the CZ / Tanfo guns in the situation where they were designed to be carried in a holster.

They were designed to be carried mag inserted, empty chamber. I know of several European agencies that teach the Israeli draw (probably didn't trust their cops to lower the hammer without an ND).

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