Are match entry/access rules needed?

[CHA-LEE]

With more and more major matches filling up in minutes online and there being more demand than available slots, should USPSA deploy some rules around who gets access to the limited match slots? Since every match has it maximum capacity there needs to be some consistent method for determining who gets in and who does not. I am not sure what the right answer is for this but I figured I would kick off the discussion by listing some options below. What do you guys think?

 

(1) Allocate the slots by Classification per division from highest to lowest.

Pro's - This would ensure that the shooters who are actually contending for the match winning titles can get into the match.

Con's - Lower classification or unclassified shooters would potentially miss out on attending due to all slots being filled.

 

(2) Random Drawing for slots

Pro's - Everyone is basically in the same boat for access to attending.

Con's - A specific "Random" drawing process would need to be deployed so its performed the same across all matches.

 

(3) Prior Match Performance gives you a higher priority in access to the match.

Pro's - This would be very similar to doing it by classification but it would cover the few who are coming up through the classification system slowly.

Con's - Do you delay adding people to the match until all prior shooters enter?

 

(4) First come first serve

Pro's - This fills the match quickly and the people who really want to get into the match will make it a priority to sign up right as it opens.

Con's - What about the guys who don't have computer access or have schedule conflicts that do not allow them to sign up right as registration opens?

 

(5) ???? Maybe there is another option?

[ktm300]

This:

(4) First come first serve

If you want to shoot the match find a way to sign up on time.  Why should the match director not be happy his match is full in the first 15 minutes.  If you do anything else it becomes a logistical nightmare.

 

[rowdyb]

Double the entry fees, that'll slow things down.

[teros135]

No dinner for you.  

31 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

Double the entry fees, that'll slow things down.

Go to your room.  

[motosapiens]

Rowdy apparently stayed awake during economics class, and he can probably afford higher entry fees as well, since they are a fairly small part of the whole match budget.

I personally like the american way, where every MD is free to make his own decisions. Of course only a few MD's have the right combination of great match and popular area and convenient time of year, and some really fantastic matches DON'T sell out right away. I've opted to put some of those matches on my schedule.

[EEH]

First come first serve,, most people own a cell phone,so sign up should not be a problem..

it ain't broke so don't fix it..

[PatJones]

Area matches should give priority to folks who actually live in that area.

[teros135]

Should people who have shot the match previously (say in recent years) be given priority?

[Nik Habicht]

Here's some other ideas:

5 -- allow preferred entry to members of the range where the match is held?

6 -- allocate preferred slots to match staff?

7 -- allocate preferred slots to competitors who regularly attend matches at that range?

8 -- Invitational.  Without an invitation, you don't get to enter?

[Kraj]

19 minutes ago, Nik Habicht said:

Here's some other ideas:

6 -- allocate preferred slots to match staff?

People working that match? If you don't let them shoot you won't get a lot of volunteers 

[fastluck13]

I like option 1. Higher class gets priority.

 

I think it borders on ridiculous to have nationals and area matches with people competing for best D class shooter in the nation or area. You can earn your way in by moving up. 

 

I don't want that to sound snobby or elitist either. Just trying to relate this to other sports. Major tournaments, championships, etc. Are earned slots. NFL, MLB, PGA, MMA, etc. 

 

This is all for fun. No cadillac to be won. That said, if there is a cut to be made, it should be performance.

[Sarge]

1 minute ago, fastluck13 said:

I like option 1. Higher class gets priority.

 

I think it borders on ridiculous to have nationals and area matches with people competing for best D class shooter in the nation or area. You can earn your way in by moving up. 

 

I don't want that to sound snobby or elitist either. Just trying to relate this to other sports. Major tournaments, championships, etc. Are earned slots. NFL, MLB, PGA, MMA, etc. 

 

This is all for fun. No cadillac to be won. That said, if there is a cut to be made, it should be performance.

Well, all those B C D shooters are where the money comes from. We called them support class shooters at one time. Without them there won't be many matches.

[fastluck13]

15 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Well, all those B C D shooters are where the money comes from. We called them support class shooters at one time. Without them there won't be many matches.

I wouldn't exclude, only grant priority by class. Matches would still sell out but there would be a defined pecking order. 

 

Like saying top 200 shooters who submit a match application...

[Sarge]

7 hours ago, fastluck13 said:

I wouldn't exclude, only grant priority by class. Matches would still sell out but there would be a defined pecking order. 

 

Like saying top 200 shooters who submit a match application...

Too many people shoot too many matches for that to work. If I submit an app for your match I want to know I'm going to shoot it. I can't see waiting to find out because I need to get another app in somewhere else.

I can only take you at your word that you're not being snobbish but excluding USPSA members from a match is the wrong way to fix this. 

First come, first served is the only way.

Did you not get into a match somewhere?

[ktm300]

So a match director who is already working hard to put on a good match has to manage a process of getting entries, then at some defined point deciding who gets to shoot and who gets excluded.  Then he has to make sure all the people that got "slots" squad and pay.  Then he has to go back again and deal with the people that applied but didn't pay.  Then he has to try and fill his match with people he turned down in the first place.  Life is too short.

I think KISS is the best way to do stuff.  If you want to shoot the match find a way to sign up early.  If you are a top level pro you can get in the match, just ask the MD as they always have a way to get a few extra people in the match.  If you are a wannabe top level guy get in line like the rest of us.

 

 

[rowdyb]

I was serious with my reply. With a few simple key strokes double your match fee. The rest will sort itself out and matches will be easier to get into. Now on to just brainstorming and blah blah blah stuff.

I would never apply to a match based on a lottery system. I would likely not apply to a match that gives geographic preference.

I'm not a fan of tiered entry based off of skill, but I could see some sort of affirmative action version of it being applied. Run the numbers for each division of how many people are in each classification for that division. (I'm going to make some numbers up here for the example) Let's say for all classified shooters in Production 2% are GM, 5% are M, 13% are A, 30% are B, 35% are C and the remaining 15% are D. Then set quotas or slots or whatever for your match that reflect this. Probably still on a first come, first serve basis and allow a few percent variation to allow the numbers to work out easily.

A decent are match will have close to 100 people in production. Following this example then there would only be 2 GM, 5 Masters, 13 A class, 30 B shooters and so on. Yuck, that seems like a sucky division break down for entrants. That seems like a bad idea when you type it out...

How about a proportional system then that still allows the "regular guy" shooter to have a good chance? For every 4 C shooters who register a slot is held for one A shooter. For every 5 B shooters who register a slot is held for a M shooter. For every 3 M shooters who registers (not ones who got in with a slot) a GM slot is held. No penalty for not filling them, no limit on B and C shooters registering. Heck, you could even work it the other direction. For every A who signs up you gotta hold 4 spots open for C shooters.

Beyond all my silliness here there is obviously a demand in certain parts of the US for USPSA matches. I doubt we'll see more matches brought to the calendar in those areas.

The two main things I see are having 1. more matches, which seems highly doubtful or 2. lessening the number of people who apply. I think doubling match fees would definitely bring number two into play. And would possibly usher in a change in matches to being run for profit, with some possible positives for match staff and competitors as well. Instead of volunteers who feel burnt out and victimized you could now be paying them a real wage for their time and efforts. If you're gonna pay people to do something then you can pick and choose who you want. Want to be paid to RO or stage build? Then demonstrate proven skill in that area. Invest some of your profits in new steel, more movers, better berms, wifi at the range, ect. To me there are more positives that could potentially come from doubling match fees than there are negatives.

[rowdyb]

12 hours ago, motosapiens said:

since they are a fairly small part of the whole match budget.

Definitely! I try to shoot at least 12 major matches per year. What sponsorship I have covers 2-3 of those, the rest is on me. Live in a place where you've got to fly, 3 days hotel, 3 days rental car, 3 days food and making a $175 entry into a $350 aint that big of a deal as you're already into it $700 plane ticket, $350 hotel, $200 car and so on.

Let alone whatever you think your time is worth for the hours and hours and rounds and rounds of ammo you expended in preparation for the match. That has a valuation as well.

[EEH]

$140.00 match fee double it to $280.00, well you certainly got my spot.

 

[IronicTwitch]

What's wrong with mission counts being distributed back to areas/clubs for spots?  The more active clubs get more spots, then those clubs can figure out smart ways to select people from their ranks at the local level.  Might encourage more support from top shooters at level 1?

[rowdyb]

oh man, no way would i want my club determining who gets into a level two match or higher. the section already does something similar to  to award the 2 or 3 nationals slots they're awarded.

just double the fee. no rules change. no complicated formulas. no change in slot numbers. easy to apply across the country. no geographical exemption. doubling the fee puts the onus on the shooter, where it should be, if they want to shoot a match or not.

if the goal is to make registering for matches easier by reducing the number of other applicants, which is what i get from the OP, the simplest way to do it is make matches more expensive.

[MikeRush]

I would say 4, first come first serve. I think a lot of people are surprised about A2 being a lottery this year. I know people who altered their plans or made arrangements for someone else to register for them. They had applications in before 1 minute had elapsed, but as of now have not received approval to shoot the match where someone who signed up days later will likely get in.

I think a match should announce their policy and sign up time prior to registration and the rest is on the shooter. 

[rowdyb]

yep i agree mike that first come first serve is best no argument there, and close registration when you're full. i'm looking at you area 1 hahahaha. (man am i bitter? hahah)

but if you want the pool of potential shooters who could be first before you to be lessened, up the price. that one simple change would correct matches having too many potential applicants.

[ChuckS]

I was thinking that there should be some major change in how things are done but then I got my notice for Area 2 so I am good with the status quo.

 

 

But, the main question of this thread is " should USPSA deploy some rules? ", my answer is no, let the MD decide what method they want to use.

[MikeRush]

2 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

yep i agree mike that first come first serve is best no argument there, and close registration when you're full. i'm looking at you area 1 hahahaha. (man am i bitter? hahah)

but if you want the pool of potential shooters who could be first before you to be lessened, up the price. that one simple change would correct matches having too many potential applicants.

I studied Econ, totally get you there. I think A2 is already double what some of the Areas are and still sells out. It would probably have to hit $400 to $500 before it sways many decisions to shoot. I think major pistol matches in the southwest are a relatively inelastic good.

At this point anybody can use practiscore and the practiscore servers can handle the load. I see no reason to go for a lottery.

[bret]

17 hours ago, CHA-LEE said:

With more and more major matches filling up in minutes online and there being more demand than available slots, should USPSA deploy some rules around who gets access to the limited match slots? Since every match has it maximum capacity there needs to be some consistent method for determining who gets in and who does not. I am not sure what the right answer is for this but I figured I would kick off the discussion by listing some options below. What do you guys think?

 

(1) Allocate the slots by Classification per division from highest to lowest.

Pro's - This would ensure that the shooters who are actually contending for the match winning titles can get into the match.

Con's - Lower classification or unclassified shooters would potentially miss out on attending due to all slots being filled.

 

(2) Random Drawing for slots

Pro's - Everyone is basically in the same boat for access to attending.

Con's - A specific "Random" drawing process would need to be deployed so its performed the same across all matches.

 

(3) Prior Match Performance gives you a higher priority in access to the match.

Pro's - This would be very similar to doing it by classification but it would cover the few who are coming up through the classification system slowly.

Con's - Do you delay adding people to the match until all prior shooters enter?

 

(4) First come first serve

Pro's - This fills the match quickly and the people who really want to get into the match will make it a priority to sign up right as it opens.

Con's - What about the guys who don't have computer access or have schedule conflicts that do not allow them to sign up right as registration opens?

 

(5) ???? Maybe there is another option?

the way it is now works good, if you want to shoot in a match, you will sign up for it.

no, you don't rate preferential treatmemt, sign up like everyone else does.

Most people have phones, they can sign up using their phone.