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Titegroup vs VV-N320 for 40 cal Limited


Gman57

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Interesting.  And thanks for the info.  Ramshot comp works well for me but isnt super consistent. Its consistent enough to keep me above PF but would be nice to see it a little tighter.  I use ramshot because it was recommended to me by someone that knew a lot more than me about reloading at the time. Its cheap and ive never had trouble getting it. Everyone talks up n320 but i have never used it. Cost is a slight concern but when i started reloading 40 it could not be found anywhere.  I dont have time to test a dozen powders but that alliant sounds like something to keep an eye on. 

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5 hours ago, CrashDodson said:

Does ball meter/drop more consistent?

I like a ball powder much more than a flake.... I have even felt when running flake powder that it gets sheared off in the powder drop. :huh:

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On 1/28/2017 at 0:56 AM, 57K said:

 

Are you loading lead or jacketed? Some guys shoot enough rounds in competition that they can easily tell the difference and I have heard the word burnt once or twice. For jacketed and competing over a couple of years, it may not be a big deal. Over the lifespan of your pistol, things could be different where throat erosion could occur. Your call.

I'm shooting Blue Bullets mostly,  occasionally King's PC bullets, so tough coated.  I do shoot matches but not every week, more like one a month or so --might increase a bit this year. I certainly don't want erosion if I can avoid it, but again I ask at what point are these problems actually observed?   10k per year? 20k?  Or is it on stages of 30 round count, 40, 50?  More?   I'm not running an open gun in 38 Super so it's not like I'm burning 9-10 gr of powder every trigger pull, which I could see being a problem,  but more like 4.2.  

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+1 for WST. I've been comparing Titegroup to N320 recently. I didn't like the muzzle flash that titegroup produces and found TG really heats up the gun. It was accurate with 180 and 200 grain loads but I was looking for a slower burning alternative with no flash.  N320 was noticeably softer, and no muzzle flash. I really like N320, felt great, but also tried WST recently at another shooters suggestion.  Burn rate is about the same as N320, slower than TG. It's fluffy powder but was surprised to find that it meters just as well in my XL650 as N320 did, which appears quite a bit denser. I liked the way WST felt and groups were tight. I tried 4.1 grains for light 140 grain ibejiheads and it was super soft and extremely accurate. I'm loving that WST load and will use it for 3 gun. I tried WSF, even slower burn rate, for heavier 180 and 200 grain loads for USPSA major but keep coming back to WST and N320 for major loads.

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TG does heat a gun up.  I have a thread around here somewhere where I was looking for a way to cool it down and a welder suggested aluminum plates.  Worked much better than I expected.  In the time it takes to load mags it goes from too hot to touch to almost ambient (ambient in Florida, that is).  Usually takes about 100 rounds in fast six and 12 round drills to get it that hot.

 

This week I'm in the middle of trying out N320 after about 10-12 years of shooting Titegroup.  With an OAL of 1.125 and 4.8 grains of N320 I was getting about 950fps avg with an unacceptable extreme spread of 65 (978/913) out of my G35 with the KKM barrel and was starting to flatten some primers on the faster rounds.  Has me concerned a bit, but I'm going to load to 1.130 and go again to see if I can eliminate the overpressure symptoms and stay major.

 

I need it to work.  I went a bit overboard when I saw the N320 for sale.

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2 hours ago, KevinB said:

TG does heat a gun up.  I have a thread around here somewhere where I was looking for a way to cool it down and a welder suggested aluminum plates.  Worked much better than I expected.  In the time it takes to load mags it goes from too hot to touch to almost ambient (ambient in Florida, that is).  Usually takes about 100 rounds in fast six and 12 round drills to get it that hot.

 

This week I'm in the middle of trying out N320 after about 10-12 years of shooting Titegroup.  With an OAL of 1.125 and 4.8 grains of N320 I was getting about 950fps avg with an unacceptable extreme spread of 65 (978/913) out of my G35 with the KKM barrel and was starting to flatten some primers on the faster rounds.  Has me concerned a bit, but I'm going to load to 1.130 and go again to see if I can eliminate the overpressure symptoms and stay major.

 

I need it to work.  I went a bit overboard when I saw the N320 for sale.

What powder drop are you using? Is it clean? N320 has been nothing consistent in my experience. Sounds like you might be getting inconsistent charge weights.

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11 minutes ago, KevinB said:

I wasn't using a drop.  I hand-measured every round on a balance beam scale.  I've been reloading a long time at this point and it has me a bit stumped!

Wow you have way more patients than me. I never used a balance beam scale but maybe try an electric one to eliminate human error? My es with n320 is usually around low  to mid 20s and sd usually around 8 to 10 Ish. What bullet and primer are you using? Shouldn't be getting over preasure signs at 4.8. When I run plated bullets I'm usually 4.6 to 4.7 depending on time of year. Coated bullets I'm at 4.5. Im loading slightly shorter than you and don't have any preasure signs with federal primers which are soft.

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I zeroed the scale to a check weight I took to a pharmaceutical lab and had the weight confirmed (legit check weights are outside my budget and it's cheaper to buy a few packs of low grade check weights and toss the ones that are too far off) and made sure the lighting on the scale created no shadows but was far enough away not to heat it up before using a magnifying glass to check the lines' alignment on the scale.  I am a USPSA guy with the soul of a benchrest shooter.  I like the balance beam because if the load is within the margin of error on the electronic, it won't always roll the number up or down.  On a balance beam, I get an idea of where it is in small increments by where the lines are lining up.

 

I am using Xtreme's 180 grain heavy plated bullets with Winchester primers.  I always hand weigh my test ammo and then knock them out on a 650.  On any prog press, there will be variations in the OAL, and I noticed the velocity difference was pretty big between 1.125 and 1.130.  I work a rotating schedule, so this is my Monday and I will have to wait until my next days off to nail down the problem.  When I find it, I will say "Of course, dummy, you should have thought of that to begin with!"

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6 hours ago, KevinB said:

I zeroed the scale to a check weight I took to a pharmaceutical lab and had the weight confirmed (legit check weights are outside my budget and it's cheaper to buy a few packs of low grade check weights and toss the ones that are too far off) and made sure the lighting on the scale created no shadows but was far enough away not to heat it up before using a magnifying glass to check the lines' alignment on the scale.  I am a USPSA guy with the soul of a benchrest shooter.  I like the balance beam because if the load is within the margin of error on the electronic, it won't always roll the number up or down.  On a balance beam, I get an idea of where it is in small increments by where the lines are lining up.

 

I am using Xtreme's 180 grain heavy plated bullets with Winchester primers.  I always hand weigh my test ammo and then knock them out on a 650.  On any prog press, there will be variations in the OAL, and I noticed the velocity difference was pretty big between 1.125 and 1.130.  I work a rotating schedule, so this is my Monday and I will have to wait until my next days off to nail down the problem.  When I find it, I will say "Of course, dummy, you should have thought of that to begin with!"

I load all of my ammo the same way. I don't show my test ammo anymore attention than my regular ammo. If you are loading your test ammo and regular ammo differently than you will have even more variances. The way you normally load ammo is the way you should test it. Otherwise you are testing your test ammo for nothing. Of course it will be different with some of the things you already mentioned. It's common for presses to have slight variances. Same with mixed brass, bullet inconsistencies, powder drop inconsistencies, etc. If your are trying to minimize those inconsistencies by changing the way you load your test ammo and don't load your regular ammo like that then all of that testing is null and void. 

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On 1/26/2017 at 0:04 PM, yellowfin said:

Now here's a question : at what number of rounds is this heat problem encountered with Titegroup?  I've been loading with it for 3 or 4 years now and never observed this phenomenon.  Maybe it's a problem with all steel guns and I've only been shooting polymer framed ones?  Or is it with longer strings of fire like a 40-50 round stage or drills?  Or is it just more noticeable with 40 than 9x19 because of more powder being used? 

I can make my guns too hot to touch in about 80-100 rounds in say 5-10 minutes. Doing things like say 10-15 Bill drills in a row, back to back. Or running a 32 round practice stage back to back 4 or 5 times. This is with Titegroup.

 

With moly or other coated bullets I got smoke no matter what, I got a brownish film over the end of the gun as well. Plated or jacketed no issues with TG. But man you can make the gun super hot.

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What part of your gun gets hot? I have melted a fiber before on my SS but I have shot 150 rounds in a row with nothing but mag changes slowing the pace. Never thought the gun was too hot to touch or use. I'm guessing the barrel was hot but I grab the slide from front and never had an issue.

 

I love titegroup for .40 plated. I lose my sights when using it with any coated bullet. They all smoke too much. N320 is way better for coated.

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On 02/19/2017 at 2:56 PM, rowdyb said:

I can make my guns too hot to touch in about 80-100 rounds in say 5-10 minutes. Doing things like say 10-15 Bill drills in a row, back to back. Or running a 32 round practice stage back to back 4 or 5 times. This is with Titegroup.

 

With moly or other coated bullets I got smoke no matter what, I got a brownish film over the end of the gun as well. Plated or jacketed no issues with TG. But man you can make the gun super hot.

So basically in torture test scenarios or monster stages but not normal conditions. If only that then it's not really an issue, is it? 

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If you shoot 80-100 rounds in a row with just about any firearm you can make it too hot to touch.  I load 4.5grn of TG behind a 180 coated lead bullet to 1.180.  After 1000s of rounds and normal USPSA  type round count stages I've never had a gripe shooting TG.  

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I think for some, practicing is a normal condition.  When I used to practice and used TG I've broken a Dawson front sight or two (the actual sight).  Also the light pipes did get kind of burnt up.  I think it was because of the heat that's generated with the amount of fast shooting and relatively lack of down time during practice.

 

But don't really practice anymore.  8lbs of TG is $128 vs. $227 for 8 lbs for N320 at Powder Valley.  Even given the heat damage I still think TG is still more economical than N320.   

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3 hours ago, 57K said:

 

This is why more handloaders are trying the Vectan/Nobelsport powders. They are owned by the same parent co. as Vv and they make a version of N320 called Ba 9 1/2 that has a much lower price and comes in 1.1# containers.

Is this a direct replacement for N320? Much like WW230 and HP38 is?

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