2017 MAGPUL WYOMING GOVERNOR'S MATCH

[alma]

6 minutes ago, MarkCO said:

You missed the lawn chair and stack of pillows Alma?

[Huck]

I went to the match and liked it.  Yes, it had growing pains.  I'll go again.  I expect that this will turn into a very good match.  Practiscore isn't a big deal to me.  The venue was good and close to a major town.  The range was nice, folks were nice.  I'll be back.

 

[tgibson]

How the hell is a match that's is run by a company who is in the business of PRODUCING MATCHES have growing pains?!?  You'd think they'd have that figured out by now. 

[owtlaw]

For 300 /shooter they had better figure something out.  I would say they fleeced at least 140 sheep.

[ericm]

27 minutes ago, tgibson said:

How the hell is a match that's is run by a company who is in the business of PRODUCING MATCHES have growing pains?!?  You'd think they'd have that figured out by now. 

Let's say you wanted to produce a new target product.

You know how to produce targets.

But your new targets will rely on:

Outside partners and interests, some well defined and others...not so much.

These interests have people new to the target business or completely unfamiliar with it.

A manufacturing facility that is owned by others and has limited access for you (in fact, you have 3 days to be up and running @ 100%)

Some materials will be furnished by others.

Some aspects of the target business, say janitorial services, will be provided by others with a fixed price, non-negotiable.

 

How long will it take YOU to figure it all out???

 

ericm

 

[ericm]

22 minutes ago, owtlaw said:

For 300 /shooter they had better figure something out.  I would say they fleeced at least 140 sheep.

Remember this great quote?

"If this is not trying to be an A-hole I'd hate to see what trying looks like."

We get it, you only want to pay $30 for a match.

Perhaps this is in the realm of possibility if you ask for the child's discount.

It would be appropriate.

 

ericm

[RileyBowman]

First post here, just setup my account. I've lurked around the forum here and gleaned quite a bit of knowledge for some time now, it's about time I join in. 

 

I've not been shooting competitively for very long...about a year. 3gun for maybe 9 months. 

 

With that understanding, and my knowledge being quite shallow, I hope what I can add here will be of value. 

 

I shot in this match this past weekend. It was my 3rd major match. I was excited for it because it was fairly local to me (2 hours away), it was for a good cause (openly and warmly welcoming and promoting the shooting sports by the state's governor--that's darn right cool!), and from the descriptions the match sounded like it was going to be awesome. 

 

Upon arriving Thursday afternoon and walking the stages, I was a little bit deflated. I was surprised at how little effort it looked like went into them. They were definitely SOF-flavored stages, which is okay, but not exactly on par with what people expect from a "major" match these days. Not a lot of forethought was needed to shoot them either. There was pretty much only one way to shoot each stage. I got into 3Gun because of the problem solving--having to dissect a stage, figure out a solution how to shoot it, try to execute that plan, and then improvise when things don't go according to plan! It's hard, but it's fun! 

 

These stages were mostly fun. In particular, stage 5 was fun (even though I bombed it with an incredibly fast time and 30 penalty seconds!). Stage 6 was super simple, but also fun and fast-paced. Stage 7 was a good challenge. 

 

I felt like Stage 3 was a little unfair for some of the shooters (those that are smaller or weaker). Having to drag a 110+ pound sled 20 yards was no problem for me, but it was unfair for someone like Kay M. to not be able to do it preferring to protect her health. It would have been better planned had dragging the sled only been required in the opposite direction (away from the targets instead of toward them) when the shooter missed a target. This would have also reduced the likelihood and benefit of "gaming" the stage. 

 

Some props were awesome (MRAPs, patrol cars, etc) while others really did look like they were dug out of the trash. I was told by a local that there were far better props and even targets sitting at the range in storage. 

 

It did feel like a club match with a hefty price tag. The prize table was nice and very well distributed. But I don't shoot matches for the prize tables. I shoot them to have fun, be challenged, feel satisfied and be entertained. In other words pay for the "experience." I did not feel like I got my money's worth in terms of entertainment. I feel like there were many in the same boat. 

 

I can understand some "growing pains," but I don't understand the apparent snubbing CD has had towards the critiquing of the match. I would think an organization would actually want to improve. Listen to the customer. They may not realize it, I don't know, but the shooters are their customers. If the customers do not feel like they "get their money's worth," however they each define that, then they will not come back. I have heard from a number of other shooters that some at CD have made a reputation of not accepting criticism. That is disappointing to hear...some I would hope would change, and I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt on. But I suspect someone else will be running it next year...unless there are major changes and adjustments made and promised by CD. 

 

I like those guys, and I hope they succeed. And I also hope they will listen to this feedback from a  simple-minded, inexperienced 3-gunner. 

 

Final notes (and I'm sorry for the long post--getting it all off my chest)...

 

I could overlook the inexperienced R.O.'s. They did their best, and I would not judge them where they may not have known better. I definitely noticed them all get better and more comfortable with things as the match went on. So props to them. 

 

The best run stages were MarkCO's and ericm's. You guys were awesome! 

 

Oh and thank you to ALL of the generous sponsors!!

[ericm]

A very reasoned post.

As Chuckie would say on Sons of Anarchy: "I can accept that...." 

 

I would like to address the idea of "value" of a match and the expectation of shooters. (and when is a match a "major match"? 200 shooters? 12 stages? 1/2 day format? 1/4 page ad in the back of Obscure Sports Quarterly Magazine???)

I could set up a match with one shooting box and one target, charge $500 and succeed IF the prize was large enough.

Would this match only draw those who were there for the prize table and not shooters who wanted only "entertainment"?

In fact, if someone entered this match and then complained that there was too little effort, too little shooting, not enough entertainment, etc., etc., one might question that shooters sanity.

Now examine the last IPSC World Rifle Shoot in Russia. These types of matches do not have a prize table, but they have 20+/- stages of very well set up, run and managed dynamic shooting scenarios that seem to me to be very "club-like" and sterile from the videos (Not a lot of props, not a lot targets (on some)).

Example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDM1z5RsscM

Guess how much matches like this cost in entry fees, travel, stay, etc. (5 figures + ???)

Do 20+ stages of "club level" (i.e. simple and unadorned) stages make this a "major match"?

Some would say they are being "fleeced" by a match like this due to the expense and lack of thought and effort put into the stages, not to mention no prize table (they do give out medals) while others would say the match was "off the hook".

 

mi dos centavos...

 

ericm

[csole]

10 hours ago, alma said:

Scores here:

http://competition-dynamics.com/blog/2017-magpul-governors-match-results/

Thanks

[kurtm]

There is a shed full of props and targets at that facility, but they well as may be in Hungary if you are not allowed access to them. 

With that in mind, I am not defending C.D., but this one certainly is an example of way too many layers of inter-action. Private range, different production company, State putting the two together. Private range not liking their autonomy reduced, C.D. not planning ahead for lack of access to props......and away it goes!

My only point was originally, is it isn't cool to gripe about the way the match was run, hour on hour off over 3 days, when they were very clear how it would run right from the start! Second, sometimes people do stuff that startles an R.O. and they yell at you. It is his perception at the time, right or wrong, and it is probably best handled by talking to the R.O. one one one after all involved have calmed down rather than broadcast your general displeasure to all within ear shot.....especially when the R.O. is still within ear shot. Everything else mentioned is good and constructive. 3-gunRieley did a great job of voicing concerns.

[alma]

Here is what the Governor's office posted to Facebook this morning:

 

Quote

Much is being said about the 2017 Magpul Governor's Match.  The most important phrase for us is "thank you". 

First, thank you to the participants. You took a chance on an unknown 2-Gun match in Wyoming. Words cannot express how grateful we are that you did. Your being here made it a success.  We know we have room for improvement. We're committed to it. The State of Wyoming and our Governor's Office is committed to make this the absolute best recurring 2 Gun match in the world. We'll grow into it. We need your help to do it. We respect the time you gave us. We will improve this event based on your feedback. We'll diligently work to incorporate changes you suggest.  We take your input seriously. We will be reaching out to each of you and sincerely appreciate your input. 

 

Second, thank you to those companies and individuals who made this event possible.  Magpul, AA targets, Burris, Falkor Defense,  Grassy Knoll Enterprises, Lucas Oil, Machine Gun Tours, Mile High Shooting Accesories, Nightforce, Point Blank, Thunder Beast Arms, JP, Bison Tactical, Gunwerks, US Optics, Glock, Henning Group, HiViz, La Sportiva, Liberty Firearms Institute, Proof Research, Warrior Kit, XS Sight Systems, Zev Texhnologies, 303 Arms, Attack Pak, Brix, Lapua, Sierra, Nosler, the Cheyenne Regulators, Rocky Mountain Targets, SinterFire and the Tactical Medic - and of course the range officers on stages, Cheyenne Police Department, Wyoming Highway Patrol, Wyoming National Gaurd, volunteers, venders, concessioners and the Otto Road Shooting Range and staff. 

 

Finally, thank you to the promoters, Competition Dynamics.  We asked them to do something different from their norm, and they delivered for us.  If it were not for them taking our invitation this match wouldn't have happened. I would argue CD's forte is a different "extreme" game; way out in the woods, long shots, away from square ranges and electricity.  They are extremely successful in delivering that product - better than anyone else. This was different for them, and it was done for us. We have nothing but thanks for their willingness to step forward. We tasked them to put our vision on the ground. There would be nothing to talk about without their effort. We have nothing but appreciation for the energy spent.  They have our respect and gratitude. 

 

In the end, we don't see this match as anything less than success.  We still want to talk with you about schedules and scoring, walk throughs and water - everything that can be better next time.  But, we did it.  We all worked together to move our sport forward. That's what this was about.  

 

Next year let's try and get your Governor out here on the range with ours. After all, it is the Governors Match. 

Thank you all again...

 

Sincerely,

 

Nephi John Cole
Senior Policy Advisor for Firearms and Shooting Sports
Office of Wyoming Governor Matthew H. Mead

 

[maverik]

18 minutes ago, kurtm said:

There is a shed full of props and targets at that facility, but they well as may be in Hungary if you are not allowed access to them. 

With that in mind, I am not defending C.D., but this one certainly is an example of way too many layers of inter-action. Private range, different production company, State putting the two together. Private range not liking their autonomy reduced, C.D. not planning ahead for lack of access to props......and away it goes!

My only point was originally, is it isn't cool to gripe about the way the match was run, hour on hour off over 3 days, when they were very clear how it would run right from the start! Second, sometimes people do stuff that startles an R.O. and they yell at you. It is his perception at the time, right or wrong, and it is probably best handled by talking to the R.O. one one one after all involved have calmed down rather than broadcast your general displeasure to all within ear shot.....especially when the R.O. is still within ear shot. Everything else mentioned is good and constructive. 3-gunRieley did a great job of voicing concerns.

 

As a member of the range and knowing the people that run it, I highly doubt that CD did not have access to more targets and props. In fact most of the targets that I saw at the match, if not all of them, were range property.

 

9 minutes ago, alma said:

Finally, thank you to the promoters, Competition Dynamics.  We asked them to do something different from their norm, and they delivered for us.  If it were not for them taking our invitation this match wouldn't have happened. I would argue CD's forte is a different "extreme" game; way out in the woods, long shots, away from square ranges and electricity.  They are extremely successful in delivering that product - better than anyone else. This was different for them, and it was done for us. We have nothing but thanks for their willingness to step forward.

 

This was one of the biggest concerns for most of the local shooters. When people reached out with their concerns they were told, rather rudely at times, that they have plenty of experience running this type of match. 

[ericm]

I disagree about the targets since I unloaded them, moved them and set them up.

All targets used in the match were made by Austin from AA Targets and brought to the range by CD.

If there was an Al Capone style closet full of props hidden somewhere, we never found it.

 

ericm

[maverik]

4 minutes ago, ericm said:

I disagree about the targets since I unloaded them, moved them and set them up.

All targets used in the match were made by Austin from AA Targets and brought to the range by CD.

If there was an Al Capone style closet full of props hidden somewhere, we never found it.

 

ericm

 

My mistake as the range has many of those same exact targets.

 

You know those Conex boxes sitting in between the bays? Guess what was in them.

[Chuck Anderson]

1 hour ago, alma said:

Here is what the Governor's office posted to Facebook this morning:

 

 

 

 

This is a great statement. Makes me want to shoot the match next year, and honestly kind of makes me want to move to Wyoming. 

[MarkCO]

3 minutes ago, Chuck Anderson said:

 

 

This is a great statement. Makes me want to shoot the match next year, and honestly kind of makes me want to move to Wyoming. 

 

YEP!

[ericm]

1 hour ago, maverik said:

 

My mistake as the range has many of those same exact targets.

 

You know those Conex boxes sitting in between the bays? Guess what was in them.

 

All the things we needed to make everybody happy???

Secret things only a select few know about???

 

 

ericm

[03ROADKING]

I am curious as why no one is addressing the concerns.  They only want to talk about the manner in which the concerns are presented.  You should ask this guy or email this guy and ask this certain way.  I feel Outlaw brought up some good points, as well as others.  I don't think the range, time limits ect.. are to blame here.

[kurtm]

Lets recap.

 

First concerns:

1. Fun "local match" for $30-40, disappointed for $300......personal perception, but valid point that does need to be addressed

2. Paper scoring and mail in check. Not everyone is enamored with Practi-Score. C.D. is one of those entities that is not. This gripe goes into the category of instant gratification and really has nothing to do with how the match was run, administered perhaps, but not run

 

Second round of first concerns:

1. R.O. s allowing stages to be run different for different squads! VERY VALID concern. C.D. has historically used R.O.s on a volunteer basis, and these R.O.s may or may not be 3-gunners. They might be from the precision rifle side of their matches, or might just be a few guys that said they would help for a free match latter in the year. Definitely on C.D.

2.Paper score cards a joke......,.repeat and invalid as a concern on how the match was run

3.Stage design not up to par with ANY KIND of club level match..........Above it was indicated that it would indeed be a fun "local'match. These two statements conflict so we really can't take that as a concern, I mean which is it??

4.1 on and 1 off scheduling. Very clearly stated in the match announcement, so again not valid as a concern. If a person hates that schedule that much and they tell you that is the way it is run, well exactly what does on expect.

5.Several of the R.O.s have been complete A Holes. This is a perception concern, and while valid, there are always two sides to these kind of things, and they are best taken care of by the parties concerned in private so each can understand the mind set of the other.

6. Alluding to Practi-Score again.......Repeat and once again invalid as to how the match was run.

 

Third round of concerns:

1. Match staff has been less than accommodating for myself and many others. If I read this right, one is not getting what one expects in the way of explanation for the short coming one personally feels occurs. Valid to some degree C.D. has never been real responsive in this area, and I doubt that will change in this instance.

 

After this it just becomes a jumble Until 3GunRiley post a very succinct to the point constructive review. It would be nice to see C.D. reply to those concerns, but alas I doubt they will.

IN closing I must admit TGibson made me smile with his comment, and maybe the root of why some shooters were not present to enjoy a few days in Wyoming, a little detective work goes a long way in making for happy shooters.

It is OFFICIAL!! Craig Outzen IS the hottest 3-gunner. If you didn't get a ballot it was because it wasn't on Ballot-o-score. Sorry it went out by snail mail. Now someone get a bucket of water and put him out!

 

[ericm]

After that perfect recap it's time to do what my bro and I do:    VOTE....VOTE WITH YOUR FEET.

No more butthurt, no more social media, no more interpretations.

All the SWJ antics akin to running around and burning something to the ground to express your "feelings" es no bueno.

 

If you hate it:  Don't. Come. Again.

 

 

ericm

[Chuck Anderson]

I'm with you on some but not all Kurt. The PractiScore thing is a valid concern. I'm not saying it needs to be changed but it is valid. When I sent out match surveys I had the hardest time not addressing every concern. 20 guys would say the courses were great and one guy would say they needed more something. And I'd want to fix that one thing. It was hard to step back and say no. But saying no didn't mean it wasn't a valid concern, it just needed to be weighed against the benefits and costs of changing to accommodate that issue. 

[kurtm]

Fair enough Chuck, but only one person seems to be B.H. in the posts about this match in regard to P.S.

[alma]

51 minutes ago, ericm said:

 

If you hate it:  Don't. Come. Again.

 

In this case I wouldn't say don't come again. I would say to hang tight and see whether your concerns are addressed to your satisfaction. Expect concerns to be taken seriously and corrected where possible. Wyoming would like this to be a must-attend match experience. 

[MarkCO]

A little more perspective Kurt.  The ROs, other than Eric and I, had never shot a match, much less RO'd one.  They were LE/MIL guys (and Hunter of course) who were great guys, but not yet ready to run a stage.  Interestingly enough, Eric and I were the two ROs that may have been termed "A-Holes".  I think the shooter and I who had a run-in worked it out, both just too frustrated and it is now water under the bridge.  I hope Eric and Becky can mend a fence as well, but not my deal there.

 

I have confidence that the 2018 match will occur, and be better in many regards.  I am friends with most of the CD crew as well, and they will go and do what they do best.  Hopefully someone more in line with the modern aspects of the multigun shooting sports will step into the breech and hit it out of the park in 2018.  So, in my opinion, this was a one-off match and next year will be a "first" run match at setting up a solid foundation for the future, and one other states should copy.

[Chuck Anderson]

1 hour ago, kurtm said:

Fair enough Chuck, but only one person seems to be B.H. in the posts about this match in regard to P.S.

 

Agreed.  Not saying you guys, or CD, need to change at all.  Each match has it's own flavor.  There are lots of options on matches to go to.  I just wouldn't discount concerns because you don't agree with them.  Recognize them and either decide to incorporate them or not.  It's also probably not worth arguing about them on forums.  If you look at the statement from the Governor's Office, that's a great statement.  Acknowledges issues, thanks those who should be thanked, and commits to improvement.  I know, even without being there, that the CD guys were not happy with the way things went.  Too many cooks in the kitchen.  We had the same issue with the first year of Crimson Trace.  Stuff was F'd up.  I'm not saying I handled the criticism any better of that match.  Possibly worse.  But I learned from my mistakes.  (I hope.)  As much as the nice comments are great to hear, the criticism can do more to improve the match.  Of course I think the criticism would be effective privately and probably a lot easier to respond to without putting guys on blast on a forum anonymously.