Should USPSA eliminate Virgina Count?

[ChuckS]

In the Nationals Difficulty Poll thread, it was suggested that removing VC from stage 9 would of helped make the stage more reasonable. I got to thinking about this in the broader sense. IPSC has eliminated VC completely and seems to have survived. The USPSA General Principles have this:

"1.1.5 Freestyle – USPSA matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permitted to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and to shoot targets on an “as and when visible” basis. ---snip---"

VC is not freestyle. What does VC really provide? A confident and accurate shooter will shoot any course of fire with the minimum round count and someone still building these qualities may shoot more with the penalty being extra time. Since there is a built-in penalty for taking extra shots, is VC really needed? I was going to go back to the GV and review the discussion on dropping VC from IPSC but I thought it would be interesting to throw this our here first.

Edited October 28, 2016 by ChuckS

[GunBugBit]

Personally, I like some portion of stages offering the challenge of: "everyone gets to use only so many shots, let's see what you can do."  There are plenty of Comstock stages to satisfy those who don't want to be constrained by round count, aren't there?

[teros135]

43 minutes ago, GunBugBit said:

Personally, I like some portion of stages offering the challenge of: "everyone gets to use only so many shots, let's see what you can do."  There are plenty of Comstock stages to satisfy those who don't want to be constrained by round count, aren't there?

Count me as agreeing here.

[Hi-Power Jack]

A little like eliminating one-handed shooting, or table draws.

I wouldn't want to see them too often, but a little diversity is good.    

[Bamboo]

No, there is a certain type of pressure knowing you can't do safety shots on the hard targets.  It emphasizes the need to balance the Diligentia with the Celeritas and rewards that skill set.  

 

[MemphisMechanic]

No.

Making the Open/Ltd shooters buckle down on the sight and going 1-for-1 like they're running a wheelgun is a good change of pace and a legitimate challenge of shooting skill.

Edited October 28, 2016 by MemphisMechanic

[ChuckS]

13 minutes ago, Bamboo said:

No, there is a certain type of pressure knowing you can't do safety shots on the hard targets.  It emphasizes the need to balance the Diligentia with the Celeritas and rewards that skill set.  

 

About Balance :

"1.1.3 Balance – Accuracy, Power and Speed are equivalent elements of USPSA shooting, and are expressed in the Latin words “Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas” (“DVC”). A properly balanced course of fire will depend largely upon the nature of the challenges presented therein, however, courses must be designed, and USPSA matches must be conducted in such a way, as to evaluate these elements equally."

[Sarge]

Keep VC

[johnbu]

I'm a newbie, been burned a couple times on VC.  But, it adds a lot of pressure mentally that either focuses or destroys the shooter. Every miss in a VC stage was due to mental lack on my part.  it adds a dimension of required precision. . Keep it. 

[PatJones]

It would be difficult to run multiple strings of fire in a single stage without Virginia count.

I like the occasional standards stage, I feel every larger match should include one. Smaller clubs can benefit from a stage that uses fewer props to set up.

[ChuckS]

10 minutes ago, PatJones said:

It would be difficult to run multiple strings of fire in a single stage without Virginia count.

I am not sure that I understand this. Say you have a COF with 2 strings where first is 2 on each FS, 2 on each SH and the second string is 2 on each FS and 2 on each WH. To score you count the best 8 on each target, no?

Edited October 28, 2016 by ChuckS

[theWacoKid]

Virginia Count is fine and an interesting change of pace.  As is fixed time.  Why would we even worry with considering this?  

Sounds like stage 9 kicked peoples' asses and they wanted a way out.  I think Virginia Count did exactly what it was supposed to do.  Difficultly differentiates the best shooters from the good shooters, which is the whole purpose of a major, especially a Nationals.  

Edited October 28, 2016 by theWacoKid

[ATLDave]

Interesting question.  I think there are good things about having VC as an option.  Without it, it's hard to have short courses or standards where re-engagement is required with more difficulty from one shot to the next (how do you keep people from just taking "makeup" shots from the freestyle or easy position, and then just slinging requisite number of shots heedlessly from harder position/hand?).  I also saw some research recently that showed that mental processing operates fundamentally differently in an environment where there are no ways to fix mistakes... it's more than just slowing down proportionately to the optimal speed for the rule set - there are just some extra mental circuits involved.  

That said, I tend to think VC is over-used by some MD's/stage designers.  It shouldn't be done reflexively, or just because it "seems like a VC-type course."  

Also, if we ditched VC, there goes about 85% of the classifier book and database.  I guess that could be a feature or a bug depending on your views...

[johnbu]

14 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

I am not sure that I understand this. Say you have a COF with 2 strings where first is 2 on each FS, 2 on each SH and the second string is 2 on each FS and 2 on each WH. To score you count the best 8 on each target, no?

A person could shoot 8 rounds freestyle and mike all the SH and WH for a good score.

[Strick]

I think my biggest complaint with VC stages is not allowing me to make up a shot I know I missed without penalty......but I still get a penalty for missing.  Why do I eat a -10 penalty if I am not allowed to make up the shot?

[AzShooter]

The advantage of VC is to know your capabilities.  Many people try to get all the shots off when if they would just shoot A s confidently they would end up doing better.  Your Master and Grand Masters will get off more shots and do better on the stage but against your own class you can prove your ilk.

[MikeBurgess]

1 hour ago, Strick said:

I think my biggest complaint with VC stages is not allowing me to make up a shot I know I missed without penalty......but I still get a penalty for missing.  Why do I eat a -10 penalty if I am not allowed to make up the shot?

I think in the right circumstance it works well, in the case of not making up a mike without penalty it forces the shooter to be 100% responsible for every shot fired. 

I have made up shot on VC stages but I knew I had to be 100% sure on my called miss. it adds a extra layer of thought to your shooting.

We had a VC standards stage at last weekends match and I had a mike on the last shot before the mandatory reload on a very close target (my fault trying to go to fast) and the whole rest of the run I was thinking did I shoot the wrong target do I have an extra hit somewhere? to me it added the element of thinking while shooting not just hosing away. We did have a very good shooter on our squad that got bit by the double penalty for extra shot and extra hit when he instinctively made up a shot that had a bad sight picture, in his case the extra alpha cost him 20 points. 

I could see changing it so that you only get the extra shot penalty and eliminate the extra hit penalty, the shooter is still forced to account for every shot but is not doubly penalized for actually hitting a target they thought they missed. I don't see a way where that could be gamed.

 

 

 

[Strick]

I think you missed my point.  I don't have a problem with the extra shot/extra hit penalty.  I have a little issue with giving me a miss penalty, on top of the loss of points, for a shot that you will penalize me for making up.  If I can't make up a miss then I should not have to eat the extra -10 points.

[teros135]

Yes, we get it.  VC is about discipline.  Accountable for all shots.  Miss, you don't get to shoot it again, you have to let it go.  If you just can't help yourself and have to take an extra shot, we'll it's your decision to take another penalty.  Simple.  Discipline.

[Flatland Shooter]

At a local indoor shooting range with limited space, Virginia Count enables us to turn one stage into two.  

We could make the stages Comstock which would result in a bottleneck in that bay, or run it Virginia Count and get the  competitors a little more trigger time.

 

Edited October 29, 2016 by Flatland Shooter

[Distant Thunder]

5 hours ago, AzShooter said:

The advantage of VC is to know your capabilities.  Many people try to get all the shots off when if they would just shoot A s confidently they would end up doing better.  Your Master and Grand Masters will get off more shots and do better on the stage but against your own class you can prove your ilk.

 

Yup!

[MikeBurgess]

The advantage of VC is to know your capabilities.  Many people try to get all the shots off when if they would just shoot A s confidently they would end up doing better.  Your Master and Grand Masters will get off more shots and do better on the stage but against your own class you can prove your ilk.

That's more a description of a fixed time stage strategy, in Virginia Count you still eat miss penalties and there is no time limit to race to get your shots off

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

[PatJones]

8 hours ago, Strick said:

I think my biggest complaint with VC stages is not allowing me to make up a shot I know I missed without penalty......but I still get a penalty for missing.  Why do I eat a -10 penalty if I am not allowed to make up the shot?
 

If you _ know _ you missed the target, make up the shot. The penalty for an extra shot is the same as a miss, -10. If you manage to shoot an A you get 5 points; that turns the penalty into a net -5.

If you caught a D on the target with the first shot, you go from -10 +2 to -20 +5 with the extra shot & extra hit. You're much better off eating the D.
 

Edited October 29, 2016 by PatJones

[zzt]

Keep VC as it is.

[bthoefer]

Virginia Count adds a different challenge when used. Nothing lost by having it as an option.