What to do with the extra bullet

[Flatland Shooter]

On 11/8/2018 at 10:47 PM, wtturn said:

This is why Virginia count is idiotic

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk
 

 

As for Virginia Count, I can take it or leave it.  The problem scoring it comes from multiple strings on the same target.  Either design the stage with different arrays for each string or score targets between strings.  

[Brooke]

you can't eliminate an earned penalty by a later action. The shooter fired an extra shot and hit target with it on string 1. He gets two procedurals. Then he proceeded to get a penalty for FTSA on string two. Thats total of 3 procedurals. I could also argue that he failed to follow the written stage brief by only firing 5 shots on string 2 giving him 4 procedurals.

 

I cannot see an argument that the poor guy has been penalized enough. WTF he is the one that performed the illegal actions. Give him everything applicable. Mercy is not in the rulebook.

[IHAVEGAS]

Scoring targets from the start position before all strings have been shot seems pretty dicey. I also don't think ftsa would apply.

 

I count the extra hits during shooting and then score the paper as it stands after shooting is complete. 

Edited November 17, 2018 by IHAVEGAS

[RJH]

10 hours ago, Brooke said:

you can't eliminate an earned penalty by a later action. The shooter fired an extra shot and hit target with it on string 1. He gets two procedurals. Then he proceeded to get a penalty for FTSA on string two. Thats total of 3 procedurals. I could also argue that he failed to follow the written stage brief by only firing 5 shots on string 2 giving him 4 procedurals.

 

I cannot see an argument that the poor guy has been penalized enough. WTF he is the one that performed the illegal actions. Give him everything applicable. Mercy is not in the rulebook.

 

The problem is that the rule book doesn't support 2 of the procedurals you are trying to give the shooter.  

 

as an RO you should generally try to follow the rulebook.  There is another thread on virgina count stages in the last few days with a good post showing the applicable rules, you might want to take a look at it

[Sarge]

8 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

I count the extra hits during shooting and then score the paper as it stands after shooting is complete. 

You mean shots?

[Sarge]

8 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

Scoring targets from the start position before all strings have been shot seems pretty dicey. 

 

Herein lies the rub. On “can you count “ for example, it’s very easy to tell if there are six holes on a target instead of five. The targets are what, 8 feet away? But I’m like you. I was taught to only count shots from the line then score hits at the target. Keeps it simple

[IHAVEGAS]

24 minutes ago, Sarge said:

You mean shots?

 

"220 , 221 , whatever it takes"

 

 

[Sarge]

21 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

"220 , 221 , whatever it takes"

 

 

 

Edited November 17, 2018 by Sarge

[IHAVEGAS]

 

 

!!

[waktasz]

On 11/17/2018 at 5:22 AM, Brooke said:

you can't eliminate an earned penalty by a later action. The shooter fired an extra shot and hit target with it on string 1. He gets two procedurals. Then he proceeded to get a penalty for FTSA on string two. Thats total of 3 procedurals. I could also argue that he failed to follow the written stage brief by only firing 5 shots on string 2 giving him 4 procedurals.

 

I cannot see an argument that the poor guy has been penalized enough. WTF he is the one that performed the illegal actions. Give him everything applicable. Mercy is not in the rulebook.

 

No. Dear god no. Not that at all.

[broadside72]

On 11/8/2018 at 1:36 PM, Flatland Shooter said:

Stage Description:  6 metric targets at 15 yards each spaced 2 yards apart. 

 

String 1  -  Engage T1 - T6 with one shot each Virginia Count. 

 

String 2  -  Repeat,  engage T1 - T6 with one shot each Virginia Count. 

 

Sound about right?

 

Now we have two identical skilled shooters that shoot the stage with all "A" hits.  Both have 1.0 sec draws, 0.40 sec transitions and 0.2 sec splits.

 

On string 1  Open shooter "Roy" accidentally double taps the first target followed by one shot each on the remaining targets. String time = 3.2 sec.  On string 2 he fails shoot at T-1 but engages  the other 5 targets firing only 5 rounds.  String time is 2.6 sec.  Stage total is 5.8 sec for a 8.620 HF.

 

Our other shooter, "Roger" on String 1 also accidentally double taps the first target and also has a string time of 3.2 sec.  On string 2, his "first" shot misses the target but has all his hits on the remaining targets firing six rounds.  His string time is 3.0 sec.  Stage total is 6.2 sec fo a 8.065 HF.   

 

Roy beats Roger on this stage by 6.9%.

 

We can say that Roy did not follow the WSB or we can say the he FTSA the first target, but without a penalty for that action, he gets an unfair advantage over Roger.

 

Of course we have a third shooter that also double taps the first target, then shoots the second string with all hits (extra shot + extra hit) for a 6.452 HF. 

 

Roy really beat this guy.  Good job Roy.

 

So what the actual penalties for Roy and Roger? Here is how I see it (likely incorrect)

Doesn't Roy gets one for 9.4.5.1 (extra shot per stage OR string) and then one for stacking per 9.4.5.3 (not firing minimum shots in ANY string ). He does not get the extra hit from 9.4.5.2 since that is per course of fire (stage). He does not get FTSA because per 9.5.7 that is per stage as well.

Roger gets one for 9.4.5.1 for the extra shot in a string same as Roy, but not the stacking penalty as he shot the correct number per string. He also does not get the FTSA. 

So Roger should get a 8.065 HF and Roy should have dropped to a 6.897 HF

I didn't see this addressed in this thread so i am looking for clarification. I want to better understand the rules. 

 

[Derrick-508]

I'm with Broadside72, can this get cleared up?

[waktasz]

9.4.5.3  Stacked shots (i.e. obviously shooting more than the required rounds on a target(s) while shooting other target(s) with fewer shots  than  specified  in  any  string)

 

Did he do this? If not, it's not stacking

 

[DKorn]

19 hours ago, waktasz said:

9.4.5.3  Stacked shots (i.e. obviously shooting more than the required rounds on a target(s) while shooting other target(s) with fewer shots  than  specified  in  any  string)

 

Did he do this? If not, it's not stacking

 

 

Exactly. Stacked shots isn’t too many in one string and not enough in the next. It’s too many on at least one target and not enough on others in the same string. For instance, if you had a Virginia count stage with 2 targets and 2 strings and the each string was “Engage each target with only two rounds each”- shooting the first target four times in the first string and the second target four times in the second string would be stacking; engaging the first target 3 times and the second target twice in the first string, then engaging the first target only once and the second target twice in the second string would not be stacking. In the second example you would get a penalty for too many shots in the first string but no stacking penalties. 

[broadside72]

7 hours ago, DKorn said:

 

Exactly. Stacked shots isn’t too many in one string and not enough in the next. It’s too many on at least one target and not enough on others in the same string. For instance, if you had a Virginia count stage with 2 targets and 2 strings and the each string was “Engage each target with only two rounds each”- shooting the first target four times in the first string and the second target four times in the second string would be stacking; engaging the first target 3 times and the second target twice in the first string, then engaging the first target only once and the second target twice in the second string would not be stacking. In the second example you would get a penalty for too many shots in the first string but no stacking penalties. 

 

On 11/28/2018 at 8:42 AM, waktasz said:

9.4.5.3  Stacked shots (i.e. obviously shooting more than the required rounds on a target(s) while shooting other target(s) with fewer shots  than  specified  in  any  string)

 

Did he do this? If not, it's not stacking

 

 

so my assessment above is correct? 

[Gary Stevens]

On 11/7/2018 at 5:41 PM, Flatland Shooter said:

 

Was this taken to arbitration?       How did that work out?   What Rules were cited?      (Does "FTSA" mean "Failure to shoot at"?)     If in the 2nd string he put a round past the target and into the berm, do you think they still would have given him the "FTSA" procedural?

 

 

If the RM made that decision that is the end of it. No arbitration on a scoring issue.

[theWacoKid]

58 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

 

 

so my assessment above is correct? 

No, there is nothing about stacking that applies to firing less than the minimum shots.  Stacking only applies to shooting more than specified at one target while ALSO shooting less than specified at another target.  Both of those things need to occur during the string to be stacking.  

Edited November 29, 2018 by theWacoKid

[broadside72]

No, there is nothing about stacking that applies to firing less than the minimum shots.  Stacking only applies to shooting more than specified at one target while ALSO shooting less than specified at another target.  Both of those things need to occur during the string to be stacking.  

But Roy shot extra and Roger did not. That's why I said Roy gets stacking and Roger doesn't. Stacking applies to the stage not individual strings within a stage.

[theWacoKid]

43 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

But Roy shot extra and Roger did not. That's why I said Roy gets stacking and Roger doesn't. Stacking applies to the stage not individual strings within a stage.
 

 

I dunno then.  9.4.5.3 says "in any string".  Does "in any string" apply to the actions the rule defines or does "in any string" apply to "fewer shots than specified"?

 

I've always understood it to mean stacking penalties apply to actions during the string and not across strings.  The reason is if you perform the actions across strings you will already be penalized by extra shots so there's no reason to apply stacking.  Stacking really covers the instances when targets in a string are shot improperly while firing the correct number of rounds.  

 

Also, you are penalizing the shooter twice for one shot.  The second shot on the first target first string is the basis for you applying an extra shot and stacking penalty.  We were told specifically in RO class that a single shot will never accrue multiple procedurals except in the case of an extra shot also ending up as an extra hit.  

Edited November 29, 2018 by theWacoKid

[broadside72]

9 hours ago, DKorn said:

 

Exactly. Stacked shots isn’t too many in one string and not enough in the next. It’s too many on at least one target and not enough on others in the same string. For instance, if you had a Virginia count stage with 2 targets and 2 strings and the each string was “Engage each target with only two rounds each”- shooting the first target four times in the first string and the second target four times in the second string would be stacking; engaging the first target 3 times and the second target twice in the first string, then engaging the first target only once and the second target twice in the second string would not be stacking. In the second example you would get a penalty for too many shots in the first string but no stacking penalties. 

This is why I am asking and trying to understand.  Seems like the more I look into the rules the more grey area there is

 

[waktasz]

I don't believe it is gray at all. Re-read the rule that I quoted and apply it to the scenario. 

[Bruno45]

FTSA