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What to do with the extra bullet

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During my CRO class one of the discussions concerned how to score an extra hit on target.  situation 1: A target is partially obscured by a plastic barrel. The shooter hits the barrel and the bullet goes on to hit the target. Since props are impenetrable one of the scoring hits must not be scored. Just for giggles let's say one is an A, one is a C, and one is a D. Which ones do you score as hits on target? Answer: the hit without a grease ring. When that bullet went through the barrel it lost the grease that makes the ring. Situation 2 On the attached Virginia count classifier the shooter fires an extra round on one target. Here again let's say 6A's, 1C, and 1D. Which one do you omit? Now before you answer, you have to back up your statement with the rule in the book. He already got a penalty for an extra shot and an extra hit. You certainly can't see the target, at that distance to be able to see the bullets penetrate. The shooter has already been penalized with an extra shot and an extra hit. How do you score the target?

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For your second scenario, the answer is: Best hits on paper are scored per the written stage briefing. Unless it says something different. Pretty simple, the shooter has already received the penalties for their extra shot and hit, can't continue to penalize them.

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Best hits are scored

 

9.2.3.1

Edited by Sarge

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Assuming scoring is best 7 per paper, he would have 6A, 1C, 1 procedural for extra hit on paper.

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On ‎12‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 10:54 AM, Frieday said:

Assuming scoring is best 7 per paper, he would have 6A, 1C, 1 procedural for extra hit on paper.

 

Procedural for the extra shot, right? Whether it hit the paper doesn't matter does it?

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44 minutes ago, ddc said:

 

Procedural for the extra shot, right? Whether it hit the paper doesn't matter does it?

Always.

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7 hours ago, ddc said:

 

Procedural for the extra shot, right? Whether it hit the paper doesn't matter does it?

Yes.  Procedurals for extra shots must be applied immediately after "Range is Clear" and Time is given, before scoring of the targets.

So if the RO counted an extra shot fired, the procedural should be applied for each extra shot fired.

 

Once they proceed to score the targets, the RO should apply a procedural for each extra hit on paper.  The reason I said "Assuming scoring is best 7 per paper" is because if it was best 8 per paper he would not get another procedural for extra hit.  It would simply be 6A's, 1C, and 1D.

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Recently saw this issue arise at a match. Shooter double tapped a target on a single shot Virginia count string. On the second string, the shooter didn’t engage that target a second time. So the shooter only recieved the penalty for the extra shot, not the extra hit.

 

now the question I have, should the shooter have recieved a failure to engage on the target on the second string?

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7 minutes ago, Boudreaux78 said:

Recently saw this issue arise at a match. Shooter double tapped a target on a single shot Virginia count string. On the second string, the shooter didn’t engage that target a second time. So the shooter only recieved the penalty for the extra shot, not the extra hit.

 

now the question I have, should the shooter have recieved a failure to engage on the target on the second string?

 

I don't think you can give an FTE for a target with a bullet hole in it.  The target was shot at on the stage, just not the string

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3 hours ago, RJH said:

 

I don't think you can give an FTE for a target with a bullet hole in it.  The target was shot at on the stage, just not the string

 

Its a Virginia Count stage.  One procedural for the extra shot on string 1 (Rule 9.4.5.1) plus one procedural for the extra hit (Rule 9.4.5.2) plus a third procedural for fewer shots taken than specified in any string. (Rule 9.4.5.3) if the targets were scored between strings.
 
In a Virginia Count Course of Fire or a Fixed Time Course of Fire:
 
9.4.5.1 
Extra shots (i.e. shots fired in excess of the number specified in  a component string or stage), will each incur one procedural  penalty. Additionally, during scoring, no more than the specified number and highest scoring hits will be awarded.
 
9.4.5.2
Extra hits (i.e. hits on the scoring area of scoring paper targets in excess of the total number specified in the stage), will each incur one procedural penalty. Note that hits on hard cover and/or no-shoots are not treated as Extra Hits.
 
9.4.5.3
Stacked shots (i.e. obviously shooting more than the required rounds on a target(s) while shooting other target(s) with fewer shots than specified in any string), will incur one procedural penalty per target insufficiently engaged in any string.
 
As long as the targets were not scored between strings, the shooter could have saved himself two procedurals by putting one round into the back berm (missed the target) on the second string.  Sufficient shots were fired in each string, all targets had the correct number of hits and just one procedural for the extra shot fired.
 
 
 
Edited by Flatland Shooter

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On 11/5/2018 at 6:15 PM, Flatland Shooter said:

 

Its a Virginia Count stage.  One procedural for the extra shot on string 1 (Rule 9.4.5.1) plus one procedural for the extra hit (Rule 9.4.5.2) plus a third procedural for fewer shots taken than specified in any string. (Rule 9.4.5.3) if the targets were scored between strings.
 

 

There's no penalty for firing less than the required number of rounds, unless stacking occurs.  For stacking to occur some target must have been engaged MORE than required.  This is to eliminate firing the correct number of shots or less, but over-engaging a particular target or targets.  In any other scenario that the shooting is done incorrectly, other penalties will apply.  If you fire too many shots, you get extra shot penalties.  If you fire less than the required shots, you get a miss penalty.  If you proceed to make up misses or insufficient shots on subsequent strings you will end up with extra shots or stacking penalties in the attempt to correct.  So again, no penalty is directly applied to firing less than the stipulated number of rounds and everything will work out properly.

 

We ran into an issue at Nationals this year that I am sure was scored wrong.  Same issue, on a one per Virginia count stage a shooter put two on a target on the first string but shot all the other targets once.  He ended up with an extra shot penalty.  On the second string he wisely did not shoot that target.  They gave him an FTSA.  He had already been penalized for the mistake and if you apply all the rules they are smartly written to NOT require you to intentionally miss a shot at a target to avoid a penalty.  The rulebook says an FTE applies to a stage.  The rulebook also stages that a string is a component of a stage and not a stage itself.  Therefore, the target was engaged during the stage so no FTSA applies, there was an extra shot penalty properly applied, and no stacking.  He should've been penalized with an extra shot and then the targets scored.  

 

IF in the above case the shooter had decided to stop shooting on the first string at the required number of rounds he would not have shot a particular target.  This would have been one procedural for stacking because he insufficiently engaged a target WHILE engaging another target with more rounds than required.  Then he'd be in the situation where to correct the mistake on string two he would have had to not shoot the target with two hits and shoot the target with no hits twice.  This would again create a stacking penalty on string two.  In the end, he made the right calls after the mistake of shooting a target twice by taking the extra shot penalty on string one and not firing at the target with 2 hits on string two.  

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6 hours ago, theWacoKid said:

We ran into an issue at Nationals this year that I am sure was scored wrong.  Same issue, on a one per Virginia count stage a shooter put two on a target on the first string but shot all the other targets once.  He ended up with an extra shot penalty.  On the second string he wisely did not shoot that target.  They gave him an FTSA. 

 

Was this taken to arbitration?       How did that work out?   What Rules were cited?      (Does "FTSA" mean "Failure to shoot at"?)     If in the 2nd string he put a round past the target and into the berm, do you think they still would have given him the "FTSA" procedural?

 

Edited by Flatland Shooter

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1 hour ago, Flatland Shooter said:

 

     (Does "FTSA" mean "Failure to shoot at"?) 

 

Yeah, FTSA is what it's actually called in the rules, even though some still cling to FTE.

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4 hours ago, Flatland Shooter said:

 

Was this taken to arbitration?       How did that work out?   What Rules were cited?      (Does "FTSA" mean "Failure to shoot at"?)     If in the 2nd string he put a round past the target and into the berm, do you think they still would have given him the "FTSA" procedural?

 

 

Wasn't taken to arbitration. There were offers to pay. In the end I'm not 100% sure how it turned out even though everyone who should know better was there. 

 

The feeling I got was that they would not have given him an FTSA if he burned one into the berm. Which is galactically stupid. What seemed to be their thought was the string is a stage. Which it is not since it's specifically defined in the rulebook as a component of a stage. A component of something cannot be that something. I was baffled how they were trying to penalize him incorrectly. 

 

Again, I don't know how it worked out in the end. 

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I just checked his score. He has an extra shot and ftsa penalty. Totally wrong. I'm constantly amazed at how well the uspsa rules are written if they would just be applied correctly by the text. 

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I respectfully disagree.  String 1 already has a procedural for extra shot and if he called his shots, he knows there is a second penalty for the extra hit.  Say his splits are 0.20 seconds.  If the targets are spread out, his transitions were possibly 0.45 seconds.  If the second string was weak hand only, the transition may have been even longer.

 

The extra shot on the first string cost him an extra 0.20 seconds.  But not taking the shot on the target on the second string saved him a transition and 0.45 seconds for a net time savings of  0.25 seconds on the combined time for the two strings.

 

I believe the reason for stacking and FTSA rules is without those procedurals the shooter can unfairly save a few tenths of seconds.  Without the penalty, the shooter will get an unfair advantage.

 

FWIW, I personally would shoot each string as I felt it should be shot.  If I made an extra shot fired on the first string, I would take the procedural since I earned .it  On the second string, I would shoot all targets as called for in the COF, make the shot and get hit with another earned procedural for the extra hit. Most likely I could have thrown a shot and intentionally missed the offended target.  The RO would probably never notice it and if he did, probably not call it.  But I'm just not wired that way.

Edited by Flatland Shooter

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You're correct he probably net saved 0.20-0.25 seconds or something. However, the trade-off for that time savings was a 10 point extra shot penalty. That's not unfair, that's the penalty imposed by the rules for taking that time "advantage".  He made one mistake in the first string, he shouldn't continue to get penalties due to that first string mistake and NEVER should the rules expect you to fire an INTENTIONAL miss to avoid a penalty. And if they're applied correctly, they don't. 

 

You're saying somehow he was gaining an advantage which isn't true. He ended with a net disadvantage because the rules imposed a penalty that more than offset his time advantage. 

 

He took the procedural he earned in the first string as he should. But he did not earn a procedural he was given for the second string. Basically he got an ftsa for a target that had the required two hits for the stage. 

Edited by theWacoKid

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Stage Description:  6 metric targets at 15 yards each spaced 2 yards apart. 

 

String 1  -  Engage T1 - T6 with one shot each Virginia Count. 

 

String 2  -  Repeat,  engage T1 - T6 with one shot each Virginia Count. 

 

Sound about right?

 

Now we have two identical skilled shooters that shoot the stage with all "A" hits.  Both have 1.0 sec draws, 0.40 sec transitions and 0.2 sec splits.

 

On string 1  Open shooter "Roy" accidentally double taps the first target followed by one shot each on the remaining targets. String time = 3.2 sec.  On string 2 he fails shoot at T-1 but engages  the other 5 targets firing only 5 rounds.  String time is 2.6 sec.  Stage total is 5.8 sec for a 8.620 HF.

 

Our other shooter, "Roger" on String 1 also accidentally double taps the first target and also has a string time of 3.2 sec.  On string 2, his "first" shot misses the target but has all his hits on the remaining targets firing six rounds.  His string time is 3.0 sec.  Stage total is 6.2 sec fo a 8.065 HF.   

 

Roy beats Roger on this stage by 6.9%.

 

We can say that Roy did not follow the WSB or we can say the he FTSA the first target, but without a penalty for that action, he gets an unfair advantage over Roger.

 

Of course we have a third shooter that also double taps the first target, then shoots the second string with all hits (extra shot + extra hit) for a 6.452 HF. 

 

Roy really beat this guy.  Good job Roy.

Edited by Flatland Shooter

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19 minutes ago, Flatland Shooter said:

Stage Description:  6 metric targets at 15 yards each spaced 2 yards apart. 

 

String 1  -  Engage T1 - T6 with one shot each Virginia Count

 

String 2  -  Repeat,  engage T1 - T6 with one shot each Virginia Count

 

Sound about right?

 

Now we have two identical skilled shooters that shoot the stage with all "A" hits.  Both have 1.0 sec draws, 0.40 sec transitions and 0.2 sec splits.

 

On string 1  Open shooter "Roy" accidentally double taps the first target followed by one shot each on the remaining targets. String time = 3.2 sec.  On string 2 he fails shoot at T-1 but engages  the other 5 targets firing only 5 rounds.  String time is 2.6 sec.  Stage total is 5.8 sec for a 8.620 HF.

 

Our other shooter, "Roger" on String 1 also accidentally double taps the first target and also has a string time of 3.2 sec.  On string 2, his "first" shot misses the target but has all his hits on the remaining targets firing six rounds.  His string time is 3.0 sec.  Stage total is 6.2 sec fo a 8.065 HF.   

 

Roy beats Roger on this stage by 6.9%.

 

We can say that Roy did not follow the WSB or we can say the he FTSA the first target, but without a penalty for that action, he gets an unfair advantage over Roger.

 

Of course we have a third shooter that also double taps the first target, then shoots the second string with all hits (extra shot + extra hit) for a 6.452 HF.  Roy really beat this guy.

 

I disagree.  Both shooters are doing screwy actions that are not beneficial nor advantageous to shooting the stage correctly.  Roger should've shot string 2 like Roy.  Roy has NO advantage on somebody who shoots the stage properly, which is my point.  Skipping the target on string 2 will not correct for the initial mistake Roy already made, though it will help him make the most out of the stage under the rules.  Roger didn't understand the rules.  

 

Again, a rule set that makes it advantageous to intentionally fire a miss is galactically stupid.

Edited by theWacoKid

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2 minutes ago, theWacoKid said:

  Roger didn't understand the rules.  

 

Sounds like Roger and the staff at the Nationals didn't understand the rules then.

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1 minute ago, Flatland Shooter said:

 

Sounds like Roger and the staff at the Nationals didn't understand the rules then.

 

I would agree.  And had I been the shooter I would have taken it to arb.  I also could've taken my RO class instructor who was there with me and blamed my understanding on him.

 

I'd like to think it wasn't that they didn't understand the rules, but that they got it wrong in this particular instance.

Edited by theWacoKid

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IF A TARGET HAS A BULLET HOLE IN IT HOW IN THE HELL CAN YOU GIVE A FTSA PENALTY?  Very bad for that to happen at nationals.  When people get a call that is not in line with the rule book, they should really call the RM, and if he don't know what he is doing, they should arb that stuff.  As ROs we can all screw up, and make the wrong call, but that is why there is a system to get the call correct.  This is why it is important for shooters to know the rule book, if you don't you might get screwed

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This is why Virginia count is idiotic

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk

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Had this happen to a shooter at yesterday's match. 

 

He accidentally triple-tapped a target in Virgina count. The holes showed 2A, 1C. The RO explained that the shooter would have done himself a favor by missing one of the shots, but the Open gun probably ensured all three landed on cardboard. The target was scored as 2A, 1 extra hit, and the shooter was given a procedural after the Range Clear.  

Edited by Cypress
clarification

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