Having issues with muzzle rise on Stretch 16 barrel.

[brew460]

I just recently built a new A.R. 15 with a stretch 16 barrel with SJC brake, JP LMOS and M4 buffer.

I took the gun out to test fire using AE 233 55 grain and was surprised by the felt recoil and muzzle rise. I'm comparing the felt recoil to my Colt CRP 18 with adjustable gas block and the same SJC brake.

I'm planning to try a gutted M4 buffer first to see if that helps.

Next a Armalite tunable brake if the gutted buffer doesn't work.

Do you guys feel I'm on the right path?

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[Garmil]

Using an adjustable gas block ?

[brew460]

No, using the gas block that came with the barrel.


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[amccallister]

Definitely go adjustable gas if you want to maximize the benefits of the LMOS bcg. I wouldn't go any lighter on the buffer without adjustable gas. The lighter you go on the buffer and bcg the faster and harder the reciprocating mass is moving (which can cause more perceived recoil), unless you start to turn down the gas. With adjustable gas I'd bet on that being a pretty nice feeling setup, although you may not get it to feel as soft as a similar setup with rifle length gas. 

[brew460]

I have thought about a adjustable block.

Do you guys have any recommendations on a adjustable gas block?


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[gerritm]

I used that brake a few years ago and did not care for the muzzle rise or recoil. Went to a Seekins AR ATC and tamed it right down, no adjustable block, but a Taccom light spring and buffer. Still using it today in my son's rifle.

gerritm

[TRUBL]

Think of it this way.....configuration wise.....what is different from your Colt?

1) Barrel length

2) adjustable gas

3) ???

You want the barrel, we get that and that's ok. You are using the same brake on both configurations, so at this point, don't pour anymore money into the brake.

Do the adjustable gas block or adjustable gas key......install it, adjust it and see how it works for you.

Then take a look at your total reciprocating mass (IE....buffer), if you need to go farther. you can try removing the weights, or buy the TACCOM buffer system. There is allot written up on both ways in the forum......but do one thing at a time. And it appears that you may see the best gain with adjustable gas, and then you can refine it from there.

Tim

[TonytheTiger]

What is the weight difference between the two rifles?

[brew460]

Tim,
Thanks for your thoughts.

There's two differences between the rifles.
1) Barrel length/ length of the gas system.

2) adjustable gas block.

I'm planning to take the adjustable gas block off the Colt and give that a try before purchasing anything else.


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[Steve O'Connell]

Be careful with the adjustable gas block fit inside your handguard.  Seems like the last couple of builds I've done the gas blocks are getting fatter and the handguards are getting skinnier.

[brew460]

I'll be aware of that now. Thanks Steve.


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[mpeltier]

The stock may be a contributing factor as well. Switch stocks if you can, and try it.

[brew460]

I'll give that a try if the gas block doesn't do the trick. Thanks mpeltier.


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[mpeltier]

Keep a couple things in mind also, the Colt and the stretch16 gun will always be apples and oranges. You will have to accept they will always be different in recoil (perceived or real). The weight difference and the barrel length and gas system length are big contributors to the equation. Also be careful with the adjustable gas block on the 16" bbl. theres a smaller operating window of reliability when you fine tune it compared to a 18" rifle gas bbl.

[brew460]

I wonder if the Stretch 16 intermediate gas system just being 1.5" shorter than a rife gas system will give it a bigger window?

I probably shouldn't be so worried about the muzzle rise and just shoot.


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[Tigereye]

Here's another thread that may help.  I did the gutted buffer with JP polished spring and finally added a SLR7 adj gas block.  I'm using the RISE Armament brake on the Stretch 16 melonited barrel.  What I found for me was not really muzzle rise but muzzle movement.  One of Tim's comments made me realize that I was helping the gun "dip" rather than "rise".  Once I tuned the gas, I grip the hand guard in a more "neutral" way and now have very little muzzle movement.  There are several other threads that my help you. 

 

[brew460]

What is the weight difference between the two rifles?

I'm not sure on that the weight difference. I've been away from home and plan to work on fine tuning my F1 next week.


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[brew460]

Here's another thread that may help.  I did the gutted buffer with JP polished spring and finally added a SLR7 adj gas block.  I'm using the RISE Armament brake on the Stretch 16 melonited barrel.  What I found for me was not really muzzle rise but muzzle movement.  One of Tim's comments made me realize that I was helping the gun "dip" rather than "rise".  Once I tuned the gas, I grip the hand guard in a more "neutral" way and now have very little muzzle movement.  There are several other threads that my help you. 

 

Thanks for the info and the thread.

I've been looking at the SLR7 adjustable gas blocks. I looked at the dimensions of the gas block and it appears like it won't work with my F1 M7M Miculek handguard. I'll check when I get back home.




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[TonytheTiger]

If the Colt is significantly heavier it is likely to feel softer shooting than a similarly equipped but lighter rifle. That's just physics. 

It seems that most small I.D. handguards these days don't work well with the popular adjustable gas blocks. The last 3 rifles I've put together needed either grinding on the GB or filing inside the HG, or both.

[Tigereye]

26 minutes ago, brew460 said:

Thanks for the info and the thread.

I've been looking at the SLR7 adjustable gas blocks. I looked at the dimensions of the gas block and it appears like it won't work with my F1 M7M Miculek handguard. I'll check when I get back home.




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I'm using an ALG V1 and block clearance is not an issue.  I'm using the SLR clamp on version and it's the first adjustable I've ever used.

[jbran267]

My SLR-7 fits inside my Troy Alpha rail.

[Nick S]

I would check with Strong Side or Stretch to see if they changed the size of the gas port. If I remember correctly at one point they were using a smaller port that in combination with the intermediate gas system would give reliable function with soft shooting. If they opened up the port size then that may be contributing to the problem and an adjustable block would help.

Im using a SLR 7 clamp on adjustable block, JP LMOS, TTI buffer spring and Vltor carbine buffer (2.95 oz) and TTI comp. Works great.

In regards to hand guards, like Tigereye Im using an ALG rail and there is plenty of room. I have tried Noveske NSR and BCM KMR rails and while some people have had luck in terms of clearance its too close for my comfort. On a different rifle I have a SLR clamp on and a SLR ION 15" Ultra Lite Keymod Handguard. Plenty of room with this setup as well.

 

Good luck.

[brew460]

I would check with Strong Side or Stretch to see if they changed the size of the gas port. If I remember correctly at one point they were using a smaller port that in combination with the intermediate gas system would give reliable function with soft shooting. If they opened up the port size then that may be contributing to the problem and an adjustable block would help.

Im using a SLR 7 clamp on adjustable block, JP LMOS, TTI buffer spring and Vltor carbine buffer (2.95 oz) and TTI comp. Works great.

In regards to hand guards, like Tigereye Im using an ALG rail and there is plenty of room. I have tried Noveske NSR and BCM KMR rails and while some people have had luck in terms of clearance its too close for my comfort. On a different rifle I have a SLR clamp on and a SLR ION 15" Ultra Lite Keymod Handguard. Plenty of room with this setup as well.

 

Good luck.

Thanks Nick for the info.


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[brew460]

I finally got some time to measure to see if I have enough clearance for a adjustable gas block.

Turns out I have plenty of clearance with the F1 hand guard.

I was about to purchase a SLR7 the the Superlative arms adjustable gas block bleed off caught my eye.

Have you guys have any experience with Superlative arms adjustable gas block bleed off?


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[Nickoli]

Your set up is similar to mine. I too, noticed a difference in recoil when I switch from my 18in barrel at the start of this season. I said difference because I never noticed an increase in muzzle rise or recoil. Sure If you sit down and focus just on recoil off a bench you will noticed a difference, under the timer however, its much harder to realize that.

I have tuned my rifle for offhand shots at 50 yards. Its not a perfectly flat shooting rifle, but I know how it reacts and recoils which is more important so I can track my dot and know where it is going to go.

As far as the new bleed off gas block, I won't ever be convinced of venting off extra gas for our game. Just think about it, you bleed off pressure which will drop your velocity no matter what. I run a SLR7 and once I get it dialed in, I open it up one more click and leave it. I have not adjusted it all year and that's after several thousands of rounds. I know that it is frozen right now, and I will remove it this off season and get it broken free again.

 

I suggest spending some time adjusting buffer weights and even spring weights along with an adjustable block. Don't focus too much on getting your rifle to shoot "flat", in the long run you will spend more time focusing on getting it dialed in perfectly when you should get it set up so its good, reliable and practice with it. Once I started doing that, rather than tinkering with all of my gear, my performance increased and it showed at major matches this season.

 

If you have questions, feel free to PM me. I can tell you what my set up is but remember it works for me and its how I like it. Everyone is different, my friend and I have the exact same set up, minus receivers and BCG, yet his to me, shoots flatter than mine but our offhand shooting and rifle work is relatively close because we both know our OWN rifles performance.