Peplow530 Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 I shot a tier 4 match recently where ther was a swinger behind a low long wall that was painted black. It was not a disappearing target but but would swing down back and forth behind the wall. A shooter on my squad had some hits through the wall into the target, The SOs said because the 2 of the 3 shots passed through the wall they didn't count and were taped before scoring. The shooter argued saying it was an illegal prop based on rule 6.18. The MD said they were working with what they had and didn't have a steel wall. The shooter let it go but was pretty biter over it. Should this stage have been thrown out and not officially scored? Should the shooter have put up his $100 and written appeal? The rule seems pretty clear to me, what do you guys think. Rule 6.18 "Painted hard cover is not allowed to cover the path of a moving target. If hard cover is required for the path of a moving target, it must be made of a material that will not allow a bullet to pass through the hard cover and impact the moving target." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 6.18 seems pretty straightforward, I'd have upped the Century Note. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeidaho Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 First, let me type that I hold MDs in the highest regard. They and their close staff put their lives on hold for weeks at a time to put on a match! This however seems black and white if that is what actually happened. Shouldn't take a protest for an MD to throw out an illegal stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
v1911 Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 I've never seen anyone fuss over shooting through hard cover. I've seen numberous swingers coupled with stacked barrels. If you shoot through the barrel, it's still 5 down. I'm not saying the stage was legal, but it sounds like your friend should have been bitter about his shooting, not the stage. Had he had a clean shoot, he wouldn't had cared if the stage was illegal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Absocold Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 "I'm gonna build a stage that will tempt people to legally shoot through cover and then penalize them when they do it." Nice. I'd have quietly asked the scorer if it was cool to shoot through the cover or not before running the stage. If the answer is "no" and everyone is held to the same standard, then no big deal. But it really should have been made clear to everyone before the match started that it was considered hard cover and have any complaints be settled then and there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Watson Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 Not allowed by the rule cited. Real hard cover large enough to mask a good part of a swinger's arc would be a huge burden on range costs and setup trouble, it is easy to see why they were tempted. Last T3 I went to had barrels for threat cover but they were wrapped in construction paper. Hole in paper aligned with hole in target = miss. Not legit, but they were trying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peplow530 Posted October 16, 2016 Author Share Posted October 16, 2016 9 hours ago, v1911 said: I've never seen anyone fuss over shooting through hard cover. I've seen numberous swingers coupled with stacked barrels. If you shoot through the barrel, it's still 5 down. I'm not saying the stage was legal, but it sounds like your friend should have been bitter about his shooting, not the stage. Had he had a clean shoot, he wouldn't had cared if the stage was illegal. I hear were your coming from, but illegal is illegal and I would expect higher standard from a tier 4 sanctioned. Also he was kicking himself the whole weekend for all of his mistakes throughout the match. But when all was said and done he still placed 1st CDP MM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peplow530 Posted October 16, 2016 Author Share Posted October 16, 2016 7 hours ago, Absocold said: "I'm gonna build a stage that will tempt people to legally shoot through cover and then penalize them when they do it." Nice. I'd have quietly asked the scorer if it was cool to shoot through the cover or not before running the stage. If the answer is "no" and everyone is held to the same standard, then no big deal. But it really should have been made clear to everyone before the match started that it was considered hard cover and have any complaints be settled then and there. My huge problem with it is staff was shooting through the wall and scoring it as hits the previous days before public shot the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racknrider Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 Sounds like a good time to follow the lead of those other guys that state that props are impenetrable. Ranges have to work with what they have and the people that I see I trying to take advantage of it are the guys that never show up for set up and are heading to the car as soon as their last shot is fired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Watson Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 You can STATE a prop is impenetrable, and what else is painted "hard cover?" The problem is aligning holes in a prop or hard cover with holes in a moving target. Which is why it is not permissible to use painted hard cover over a moving target's path. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgj3 Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 Is the intent to allow shooters to be able to see scoring holes in targets? If there is a hole in a moving target, its a scoring hit. Trying to help the shooter a little... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewColonial Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 If a stage is legal in T4, it's legal in T3, and T2 and T1. If a stage is illegal in T4, it's illegal in T3, and T2 and T1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extremist Posted October 17, 2016 Share Posted October 17, 2016 On 10/15/2016 at 5:27 PM, v1911 said: I've never seen anyone fuss over shooting through hard cover. I've seen numberous swingers coupled with stacked barrels. If you shoot through the barrel, it's still 5 down. I'm not saying the stage was legal, but it sounds like your friend should have been bitter about his shooting, not the stage. Had he had a clean shoot, he wouldn't had cared if the stage was illegal. Sorry, that's B.S. Illegal is illegal. Just because the S.O.s didn't catch it and let it slide doesn't make it right. GOOD MDs put hard cover behind barrels so you can't shoot through them to hit the target. At least that's what we used to do at our GOOD matches. Some still do. I remember doing it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
v1911 Posted October 17, 2016 Share Posted October 17, 2016 (edited) I've only seen steel used once as hard cover. And the targets it covered weren't even moving. I get why it would be necessary to use steel for a swinger. If you put 5 rounds into a swinger and 3 holes in the blacked out hard cover, how could you determine which shots were good and which needed to be pulled? But I've yet to see steel used for hardcover in conjunction with a swinger. Again, it's usually barrels used to crate the hard cover. Edited October 17, 2016 by v1911 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaJim Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 Wouldn't multiple No Shoots in front of the (hard cover) swinger path have cured the issue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
v1911 Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 That would depend on how many NTs were already in play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peplow530 Posted October 23, 2016 Author Share Posted October 23, 2016 There were already 3 NT on the stage, one of which was attached to the swinger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now