Stage efficiency?

[BillR1]

How does one acquire the ability to analyze a stage and see the more efficient way to shoot it? I see other people (either live or later videos) shoot a stage and I'm constantly saying "Why didn't I think of that??" Is this a skill that can be trained/practiced, or is it simply something that people can either do or not do?

Thoughts?

[Sarge]

Probably some of both? Being an observant person helps.

[motosapiens]

It's easy to get stuck in a rut, and start looking at every stage the same. to get more efficient, you need to break out of that rut, and start looking at different options, even dumb ones, and evaluate them. As a righty, I prefer to go left to right when reloading, but sometimes you can save time by going the other way (we were able to skip a position an entirely at A1 by starting on the opposite side.

Talking to other people during the walkthrough (especially the day before at a major) is a good way to learn some other things to look for. Watching other shooters is also very valuable.

Pay attention to non-shooting time.... those parts of a stage where you are not scoring any points because you are moving or reloading. Try to minimize those times. Count steps for different options. Etc....

[BillR1]

11 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

It's easy to get stuck in a rut, and start looking at every stage the same. to get more efficient, you need to break out of that rut, and start looking at different options, even dumb ones, and evaluate them. As a righty, I prefer to go left to right when reloading, but sometimes you can save time by going the other way (we were able to skip a position an entirely at A1 by starting on the opposite side.

Talking to other people during the walkthrough (especially the day before at a major) is a good way to learn some other things to look for. Watching other shooters is also very valuable.

Pay attention to non-shooting time.... those parts of a stage where you are not scoring any points because you are moving or reloading. Try to minimize those times. Count steps for different options. Etc....

Great insight! I think the "rut" comment is probably very accurate. I shoot IDPA almost exclusively, and at the local matches there's usually not much flexibility or creativity needed. I'm also nearly always SOing at the local events, so I'm not taking much time to analyze my stage options. When I get to a major where there ARE different ways of shooting some stages, the "rut"/lack of planning frequently continues.

Counting steps...great idea!

Thanks!

[GorillaTactical]

Interested in seeing what the experienced guys have to say here for sure...

I wrote a little mini-blog on a similar topic a few years ago, so I figured I'd just throw it in here as it may be germane to the subject.

 

Sociology as an Explanation for Stage Plans

Sociology as an Explanation for Stage PlansSociology can certainly be a field of study which seems to produce some obvious conclusions in many circumstances, but it presents some exceptionally interesting and unique case studies as well.  One such case study is Solomon Asch's study on group conformity.  Asch conducted a study where he presented a question with an extremely obvious answer to a test subject.  When he asked the individual for the answer to his question in private, 99% of individuals polled provided the correct answer.  Asch then introduced the individual into a group setting (of approximately 7 people) where he asked the question again.  Asch instructed the rest of the group to purposely give the wrong answer to see how the original subject would react.  In over 1/3 of cases, the subject (who had given the correct answer in private) changed the answer they had given in private to the obviously wrong answer after having heard the rest of the group answer incorrectly.  Asch's study is one which still remains prevalent in understanding group dynamics and conformity.

Now, although this is an interesting topic for discussion, what does it have to do with shooting?  Well, if you ever have the chance to watch multiple squads of shooters shoot the same stage at matches of the various action shooting sports, (from a Range Officer's perspective for example) you will notice that within each squad, most shooters will shoot the stage with very little deviation from one another.  However, when comparing shooters from one squad to another, we often find that these individuals are much more likely to shoot the same stage very differently.  In other words, each squad seems to have an original take on the stage, but each person in that squad typically shoots the stage the same way everyone else in the squad does.  Now granted, sometimes stages are setup in a manner where there is really only one way to shoot them effectively, but there are also numerous other stages where there are multiple effective ways to shoot them; so can we hypothesize a cause for this manner of deviation between squads?  While there are certainly other variables which can effect a shooter's decision to attack a stage a certain way, I believe there is no way we can totally ignore Asch's study on conformity when we have this discussion.  As Asch has shown, even in cases where there is a completely obvious answer, over 30% of people will divert their decisions to those of others, and as we know, in action shooting, there is very rarely such an obvious answer to the problems presented in a stage.  Due to this fact, I'd suggest that the ratio expected in the circumstance of shooting is much higher than 30%.  Remember, action shooting sports are unique in the realm of sports, in that "players" have the opportunity to watch their opponents compete before trying it themselves.  This means that, just like in Asch's study, individuals can be influenced in how they shoot a stage based on the manner in which others shoot a stage and/or decide and discuss how to shoot a stage.  Every squad which I have ever been in has shooters who will discuss (in the very least among themselves) the way they best see to shoot the stage and the reasons why.  Based on Asch's study, other shooters in that squad are implicitly more likely to follow the group's decision on what is "correct", regardless of their own opinions (assuming their opinions are overruled by the group).  I will further hypothesize that shooters within each squad will often mimic the plan of the best shooter in the squad, regardless of whether his/her plan works best with other shooters' strengths/weaknesses.  Like in many things in life, those who are the best at action shooting and/or the opinions of those who are the best are often held in higher regard than those of others.  While I certainly believe this phenomenon to be of greater presence among less experienced shooters, I don't think that we can completely rule out Asch's study from even the higher levels of shooters in at least some shape or form.

Remember, when you are at a match, do your best to analyze a stage and pick a way to shoot which best highlights your skills and abilities.  Just because most people are shooting the stage a certain way, doesn't mean that that way is the best way for you to shoot it.  In this same line of thought however, it is also important to ask and listen to why other shooters are attacking a stage differently, even if a large majority of the reason relates to group-think, skilled shooters will still be able to give you tips and tricks to think about if you simply ask and listen.  A great deal of learning the tricks of action shooting comes from listening to someone who is better than you.  

 

Edited October 6, 2016 by GorillaTactical

[alucardus]

I found that the more things I got comfortable with the more creative I could get with stage planning. For example I hated leaning out to shoot around a corner so I wouldn't even look for opportunities to do that once I became comfortable leaning more I started to see positions to do this in more and more. Also ask more experienced shooters how they are planning the stages after you have your plan. This can open your eyes to their thought process and how it differs from yours. If you see someone run a stage a certain way that you liked go ask them why they chose to run it that way instead of another way. If you hear enough of these reasons you will start to see the situations and advantages yourself it just takes time, and you need to actively try it won't happen by just shooting more you have to really examine stuff.

 

[Corey]

The more you see various setups, the better you will be at it. As your skills change, so will the stage plans. Instead of running all the way up to a wall, maybe you'll shoot it from a yards back so that after that array is done, its only a step or two around the corner instead of a longer run, etc. 

For now, just look at the basic differences you can find such as "do i go left or right first on the buzzer?" and see which one is shorter in terms of steps or which one you feel like you can move better. Sometimes moving one direction instead of the other just feels better and will be smoother/faster.

 

[abb1]

I remember one of the best  stages that I ever shot was a 'surprize match'. It was a non sanctioned match that our club had put on. It consisted of 32 rounds in an indoor range and all that competitors were told was how many targets there were. At the start, they would have their back to the wall, and at the beep, they would enter a door and engage targets as they become visible. There was no walkthroughs, sight pictures, planning or anything. The competitor would just enter the doorway and take on the targets, knowing how many there are, but not their locations. This is probably something that could never be done in a sanctioned match, but it is a ton of fun to set up at the local club. At the end of the day, everyone said it was the best match they had shot, as mental preparation was right out the window, and you only had instinct to rely on.

[ArrDave]

Bill I can appreciate your fondness for IDPA, I don't know if your local USPSA club is any good, but with some good stages they can paralyze  you with options.  That's a great opportunity to practice stage breakdown/analysis.  I'm coming up this curve myself and I find myself consulting with other shooters being the very best, even if they're direct competitors.  The way I look at it is it makes it an execution test  if we run the same plan, which is basically what a match is anyway, right?

 It helps if you understand your "times" to put 2 rounds on a target at a certain range because then you can weight options.  I'm honestly no good at this myself and still learning.  I have a few production- centric philosophies I tend to 

- try to figure out how to shoot the most alphas the fastest and from there comes everything else.  

- The closer you can engage a target (if it's can be grouped into an array) the better, or only engage stuff at range that you have to.

- Sooner is faster but you need to understand what 5 yards can do to your split times.  Standing way back from cover may slow your splits down by .2 seconds - for 1 target it may be worth it, if there are 2 or more that extra step and a half starts to become pretty appealing for easier A's/0's. Your set up time on a target at 15 yards will be longer than a target at 10 yards, though movement to that position will be more.  

- Engaging a target from distance is only preferable to further down the bay if it eliminates a shooting position or creates an obviously better arrays down range (6 targets at the back of the bay that can be engaged from the last position, 4 obvious targets in the 1st position, but one of those 6 is open and available in that first position, then go for it) Not so much an issue for IDPA.  

- set up for success on steel, miking steel tanks hit factors.  i want to be as close as possible and have as much ammo in the gun as practical for steel arrays (just in case)

- ID targets where sending 3 vs. 2 is not a bad thing.  (Hard Cover partials, maybe not NT/NS partials)

- look for opportunities to shoot into or out of position where practical.  (that's going to be less common in IDPA due to 90% of positions being behind cover)

- look for the "simple" solution that is easy to remember/execute.  in a lot of instances it's not a lot worse than a more complex plan that's got a higher probability of shooter failure. 

- Prop manipulation - there is usually a way to game the prop, be it a lever or rope to open a port  or only shoot the minimum required targets from that port.  You can hold a lot of props and still get both hands on the gun, or get into position and pinch it between your knees, etc.  Think about the easiest way to use the prop that is probably not the way it was intended to be used but is the most efficient.

All of that said, I actually tried to get too cute with my IDPA stage plans before I stepped away, trying to game reloads too hard, forcing tac loads, etc.  A lot of IDPA is really just a test of execution of a good stage plan, rarely is there an opportunity to edge out somebody due to stage plan.  A lot of times keeping things simple is preferred.

Edited October 13, 2016 by ArrDave

[WaJim]

I'm currently a C shooter in limited and shoot an STI in Major.

I recently purchased a Single Stack 1911 exact same sights as the STI. 

I feel I've topped out in my climb to B in Limited and think that the SS pistol will do two things.

Its a SS in Minor so I'll have to slow down a teeny bit for A's and my stage planning will have to improve in order to not be at the bottom of the pack.

 

I've shot two matches so far.

Suffice to say......It takes (forces) more mental planning and Its definitely out of my comfort zone, which I feel is a good thing.

 

 

[nelson1each]

I'm weak at stage planning also...went to limited nationals and shot with a lot of guys above my lvl...shooting 22 stages with A's, M's & GM's taught me a lot about planning. I didn't try to mimic what they were doing at the time for obvious reason but sure gave me a lot of insight of what I need to work on to get better. 

[DagoRed]

I'd like to answer this. Starting w I am only a C shooter. I shoot SS major. 

 

I was was fortunate to take a class w Ben Stoeger recently and this came up, it was very interesting having the discussion w a grand master. I'll summarize what I took away from it: doing something different than obvious on a stage should only be done if there is a benefit. You're saying duh, it sounds obvious. You'd be surprised though how many guys are thinking how can they do it different without thinking, what's the actual benefit. Ie. As a single stack shooter there are things that would benefit me but not a limited or even production guy. Shooting a target at 50% more distance might save me a standing reload, where a production guy just gives himself a longer shot.

And does it play to your strengths? Ben had setup a stage for us that had three or four targets at medium to longer range. He discussed this, because of layout there was a couple ways to tackle it  come off a corner and shoot one, standing reload shoot the others  OR reload on the run, shoot while moving  he explained that for most of us in place was better, HE was comfortable, because of his level and practicing, reloading basically behind himself (explaining without showing is hard sorry) wasn't a problem and wouldn't slow him down  

I'll give two recent examples. And I am admittedly not great at planning in my opinion. But I'm trying. A few weeks ago we had a stage that had a wall you really had to lean around. I have a back issue and don't lean well. However I am comfortable strong hand shooting. Everyone else leaned around that wall far enough to take it both hands. I did it strong hand only. Was a pretty good hit factor for me, the split time strong hand didn't affect me as much as how slow it'd be for me to kean out then recover and move on. I talked to my friend who is much faster but also more flexible about this ahead, he knows how fast his splits are two vs one hand, and it was a time loss for him  (I count my split times 1 alligator, 2...)

Sunday we had a stage, four shooting positions, 8 rounds in each. I don't move real fast and try to minimize movement if I can. Start position is middle of the 4, I learned from Ben take a wide bent knee stance that lets you shift. At buzzer almost everyone took three metric and 1 steel from pos. 2 (slightly left of start) shuffle stepped for the last shot on a steel that was hidden from start, then ran left for pos 1 then back right to the last two spots. 

That shuffle slows me down. I was planning take three and lean for one steel (from wide stance this was one step off start). Run left, then come back and shoot that last steel from pos 3 w my Barney round. Luckily I watched my friend first, he went even further and took the steel from pos 4' added 2 yards to the shot BUT avoided a slide lock reload. That little bit between shooting it at 3 or 4 wouldn't matter to any shooters besides single stack, to us though it was a fractional second faster, if you could make that shot. 

I think shooting single stack helps you think about it more carefully for reloads, but there's more to focus on. Think about the things you are good at and what you're not and plan around them. I lean left better than right, I can get down fast but up slow. I transition slow. Same day there was a section of a stage you could shoot 4 metrics on the move, I shot 4 from one spot  it meant more distance but let me sprint after that,  to shoot accurately on the move id be super slow. 

I have a bad memory though so stages that have tons of targets all hidden and shit I just go A-B, even your mind can be a weakness . 

I realized when I got done this Sunday that for me stage plan is a big factor, I need to out more time into it to be decent. 

 

Red

Edited October 14, 2016 by DagoRed
Auto correct messed up my spelling

[Jake Di Vita]

A lot of good stuff has been said. One thing I didn't see is just seeing a lot of stages and ideally watching a lot of skilled people shoot those stages. Squad with the best shooters you can, ask questions and after you have done that enough times you'll have built a bank of experiences you can draw from to make decisions.

That being said, a skilled shooter can shoot a stage half a dozen different ways and as long as they don't do anything glaringly wrong the runs will all be pretty close to each other in time. Execution will always be king. A lot of times the plan I end up using in the match is the most consistent plan, not the fastest.

Edited October 14, 2016 by Jake Di Vita

[rowdyb]

Like Jake says, the execution is often more important than the plan itself. As long as the plan isn't totally stupid if you do it well you'll be fine.

After a match, especially a big one but even a local one, watch video of the people who won the stage. As you shot the same stage you'll know your plan and how you did. Then look at what the winner did. Compare and contrast movement, engagements, reloads, set ups, exits ect.

Finally, build what I call your "library". Know your time to move a certain distance. Know your splits and transitions on a wide variety of targets Knowing, as in you've seen it on a timer over and over again and can replicate it, will help you confidently assess what you're doing or want to do.

My rough decision making process for a stage is to find the answers to these questions:

• where do i have to go.
• what targets can only be shot from one place
• what start will get me to the first shot quickest
• can i erase a shooting position anywhere
• where will i reload
• can i make the arrays how i want, rather than how they are on the ground if they are super complex or lots of options
• how often and in what places can i be doing two things at once
• what is the hardest target/shot/prop. what am i going to do to ensure success here. do i have a contingency plan for an error here

When I've answered these questions I normally have a pretty good stage plan.

Edited October 14, 2016 by rowdyb

[CHA-LEE]

This may sound really simple but many shooters don't do it. Bring a stop watch to matches with you so you can time the different stage plans in dry fire to see which one is really "Faster" than another. If you can't accurately measure how much time each stage plan strategy takes then its very difficult for you to make an educated decision on one strategy being better than another.

[MemphisMechanic]

For production shooters, stop planning your reloads first. I was guilty of this before getting a talk about it with Ben in his class.

Paraphrased: Figure out what you're going to shoot, and from where. By the time you're done it'll be obvious where your reloads need to go. Reloads take care of themselves.

[johnbu]

On 10/13/2016 at 10:44 PM, DagoRed said:

I have a bad memory though so stages that have tons of targets all hidden and shit I just go A-B, even your mind can be a weakness

I have the same memory issue! Plus confusion on which target is which when i need to go back and forth around barriers to see portions of a  large array of targets. I spend the entire walk thru time trying to determine where the targets are and still end up 4 holes in some, FTE on others.   It doesn't help needing to wear readers to see the sights on the gun and the rest of the world is a blur.

[CraigEcash86]

On 10/6/2016 at 0:02 PM, GorillaTactical said:

Interested in seeing what the experienced guys have to say here for sure...

I wrote a little mini-blog on a similar topic a few years ago, so I figured I'd just throw it in here as it may be germane to the subject.

 

Sociology as an Explanation for Stage Plans

Sociology as an Explanation for Stage PlansSociology can certainly be a field of study which seems to produce some obvious conclusions in many circumstances, but it presents some exceptionally interesting and unique case studies as well.  One such case study is Solomon Asch's study on group conformity.  Asch conducted a study where he presented a question with an extremely obvious answer to a test subject.  When he asked the individual for the answer to his question in private, 99% of individuals polled provided the correct answer.  Asch then introduced the individual into a group setting (of approximately 7 people) where he asked the question again.  Asch instructed the rest of the group to purposely give the wrong answer to see how the original subject would react.  In over 1/3 of cases, the subject (who had given the correct answer in private) changed the answer they had given in private to the obviously wrong answer after having heard the rest of the group answer incorrectly.  Asch's study is one which still remains prevalent in understanding group dynamics and conformity.

Now, although this is an interesting topic for discussion, what does it have to do with shooting?  Well, if you ever have the chance to watch multiple squads of shooters shoot the same stage at matches of the various action shooting sports, (from a Range Officer's perspective for example) you will notice that within each squad, most shooters will shoot the stage with very little deviation from one another.  However, when comparing shooters from one squad to another, we often find that these individuals are much more likely to shoot the same stage very differently.  In other words, each squad seems to have an original take on the stage, but each person in that squad typically shoots the stage the same way everyone else in the squad does.  Now granted, sometimes stages are setup in a manner where there is really only one way to shoot them effectively, but there are also numerous other stages where there are multiple effective ways to shoot them; so can we hypothesize a cause for this manner of deviation between squads?  While there are certainly other variables which can effect a shooter's decision to attack a stage a certain way, I believe there is no way we can totally ignore Asch's study on conformity when we have this discussion.  As Asch has shown, even in cases where there is a completely obvious answer, over 30% of people will divert their decisions to those of others, and as we know, in action shooting, there is very rarely such an obvious answer to the problems presented in a stage.  Due to this fact, I'd suggest that the ratio expected in the circumstance of shooting is much higher than 30%.  Remember, action shooting sports are unique in the realm of sports, in that "players" have the opportunity to watch their opponents compete before trying it themselves.  This means that, just like in Asch's study, individuals can be influenced in how they shoot a stage based on the manner in which others shoot a stage and/or decide and discuss how to shoot a stage.  Every squad which I have ever been in has shooters who will discuss (in the very least among themselves) the way they best see to shoot the stage and the reasons why.  Based on Asch's study, other shooters in that squad are implicitly more likely to follow the group's decision on what is "correct", regardless of their own opinions (assuming their opinions are overruled by the group).  I will further hypothesize that shooters within each squad will often mimic the plan of the best shooter in the squad, regardless of whether his/her plan works best with other shooters' strengths/weaknesses.  Like in many things in life, those who are the best at action shooting and/or the opinions of those who are the best are often held in higher regard than those of others.  While I certainly believe this phenomenon to be of greater presence among less experienced shooters, I don't think that we can completely rule out Asch's study from even the higher levels of shooters in at least some shape or form.

Remember, when you are at a match, do your best to analyze a stage and pick a way to shoot which best highlights your skills and abilities.  Just because most people are shooting the stage a certain way, doesn't mean that that way is the best way for you to shoot it.  In this same line of thought however, it is also important to ask and listen to why other shooters are attacking a stage differently, even if a large majority of the reason relates to group-think, skilled shooters will still be able to give you tips and tricks to think about if you simply ask and listen.  A great deal of learning the tricks of action shooting comes from listening to someone who is better than you.  

 

This is great advice! 

[NMBOpen]

From Monty Python: "And now, for something completely different..." influences my stage planning.  Sometimes reality bends to fit that plan.