Is reviewing the shots on the timers ok?

[Sandbagger123]

So is it ok for an RO to review the timer to make sure it picked up all the shots if a time is in question?

[CalTeacher]

It might get tricky on a long field course where make up shots create difficulties in determining exactly how many shots were fired.

Edited September 26, 2016 by CalTeacher

[MemphisMechanic]

Honestly when running the timer I judge by the final split. For two reasons:

1. The RO frequently gets far enough from the shooter that it may not pick up the middle series of shots during a stage. (For example when a shooter enters a dead-end position he will come exploding back out of to head the opposite direction, and any decent RO won't create a safety hazard by going in with him.)

2. How many makeup shots did you fire? 3? 6? Combine that with the timer possibly not picking up a shooter when you back off 10 ft... counting shots on the timer isn't at all foolproof to ensure you're being fair.

Whats my preference?

1. I watch the timer in the corner of my eye as he fires his last few shots, to ensure it's about to record an accurate final time.

2. Checking the final split ensures that timer didn't get bumped a few seconds after he finished - I don't want to PVH someone on accident. Unless he reloaded for the final shot, anything over 05.-1.0 seconds is going to cause me to stop and make sure the time is right... unless he went dry and had to reload for one last shot or something.

Edited September 26, 2016 by MemphisMechanic

[rooster]

After the beep the timer only needs to record the last shot.  At one range we use its possible for the timer to record the next bay over.  When I start a shooter after the beep I check to see if the timer is picking up the first couple of shots after that I don't care.  The timer is used as a timing device it cannot be used as a counter.

[motosapiens]

my preferred technique, and one i recommend to everyone else, is to hold the timer in such a way that i can see the numbers if I glance at it. I make sure that I do that from time to time during the COF, especially when the shooter is likely on the last position.

I also mentally note the time before I give the ULSC command (and show the timer to the scorekeeper and whoever else is standing nearby), in case the timer gets bumped or something.

[pskys2]

Have been forced to reshoot at larger matches due to the number of shots being off.  Though each time I'm sure it was correct at the end. Funny thing is each time I bettered my score, the RO didn't expect that.  If you run a course with a unbelievable fast time it's to be expected, but I don't like to do it unless it is real obvious.

[motosapiens]

8 minutes ago, pskys2 said:

Have been forced to reshoot at larger matches due to the number of shots being off.  Though each time I'm sure it was correct at the end. Funny thing is each time I bettered my score, the RO didn't expect that.  If you run a course with a unbelievable fast time it's to be expected, but I don't like to do it unless it is real obvious.

This is what happens if one incorrectly relies on the shot count instead of just making sure the last shots are registered.

[Sandbagger123]

So lets say that a shooter has a killer run. his time is 15 sec while everyone is mid 20.  the RO is not sure if he got all the shots. he looks at the shots and instead of the 24 needed there are only 18.   shooter says its correct.  i have been told in the past that a RO can not review the timer to check round count on suspicious times. they are recorded as is unless its so far out of the range that a reshoot is given . i can't find any of this in the rule book though. Any truth to this?

[grapemeister]

I had a RO question my time on a stage once before and after reviewing the last few shots on the timer it was agreed the last shot was not picked up by the timer.  I couldn't really argue with it since the last few shots registered on the timer didn't match up with the last few targets shot.   No harm, no foul and I got a nice practice run on the stage.

I know it's very common for Max Michel to request a look at the timer in the review mode.    Of course we know he is making a mental note of the time, but I wonder if he's also looking at other registered shots to see if the timer didn't pick up on a shot or maybe got bumped by the RO.   Or, maybe he's just looking to critique his performance.   It would be interesting to know for sure why he does it.     My guess he's doing for all the reasons mentioned above.

[CalTeacher]

41 minutes ago, grapemeister said:

I had a RO question my time on a stage once before and after reviewing the last few shots on the timer it was agreed the last shot was not picked up by the timer.  I couldn't really argue with it since the last few shots registered on the timer didn't match up with the last few targets shot.   No harm, no foul and I got a nice practice run on the stage.

I know it's very common for Max Michel to request a look at the timer in the review mode.    Of course we know he is making a mental note of the time, but I wonder if he's also looking at other registered shots to see if the timer didn't pick up on a shot or maybe got bumped by the RO.   Or, maybe he's just looking to critique his performance.   It would be interesting to know for sure why he does it.     My guess he's doing for all the reasons mentioned above.

We had an issue with what you described in your first paragraph over the weekend with PCC shooters engaging a final array from a position where the RO could only get about 7-8 feet away.  We had to switch to a rimfire timer in order to get their last shots, and of course they all got reshoots.

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, grapemeister said:

I know it's very common for Max Michel to request a look at the timer in the review mode.    Of course we know he is making a mental note of the time, but I wonder if he's also looking at other registered shots to see if the timer didn't pick up on a shot or maybe got bumped by the RO.   

omg, that is the most ironic and funniest thing I have read on this forum in ages.

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, Sandbagger123 said:

So lets say that a shooter has a killer run. his time is 15 sec while everyone is mid 20.  the RO is not sure if he got all the shots. he looks at the shots and instead of the 24 needed there are only 18.   shooter says its correct.  i have been told in the past that a RO can not review the timer to check round count on suspicious times. they are recorded as is unless its so far out of the range that a reshoot is given . i can't find any of this in the rule book though. Any truth to this?

First off, in that situation, the RO screwed up. If you are not sure the time is right, you didn't do your job. All the same.... that kind of stuff happens from time to time.... occasionally it even happens at uspsa nationals, and occasionally it even involves famous shooters and past national champions as well as regular joes.... If you like drama, there's a zillion page thread on doodie project about this subject.

Without the drama, I can say that I was credited with a run that was clearly wrong at a recent match (ironically the same weekend as the shenanigans at nationals). As soon as I started comparing times with other guys on my squad I got suspicious, reviewed my video, confirmed the time was wrong, and talked to the RO's about it. They had the same concerns I had, and so we agreed to reshoot the stage, and I got the actual time I earned. That is important to me. It may not be important to some other people.

Sometimes people do go really unexpectedly fast. Sometimes RO's drop the ball and miss the last shots. That's why it is important to pay attention to the timer so you know which one of those things happened, and you don't either credit a famous shooter with a time he clearly didn't earn, or screw over a less famous shooter by making him reshoot after he just really hooked up.

[Gooldylocks]

2 hours ago, motosapiens said:

my preferred technique, and one i recommend to everyone else, is to hold the timer in such a way that i can see the numbers if I glance at it. I make sure that I do that from time to time during the COF, especially when the shooter is likely on the last position.

I also mentally note the time before I give the ULSC command (and show the timer to the scorekeeper and whoever else is standing nearby), in case the timer gets bumped or something.

I do this also. 

At the Columbia Cascade match last month I was running the timer and watched it not pick up the last 3 shots. I gave ULSC, and gave him a reshoot right then. It worked all day before that and all day after that, but for some reason those 3 didn't get picked up. Wasn't the end of the world, and the shooter totally was cool with it when I explained what happened. 

[CalTeacher]

3 hours ago, rooster said:

After the beep the timer only needs to record the last shot.  At one range we use its possible for the timer to record the next bay over.  When I start a shooter after the beep I check to see if the timer is picking up the first couple of shots after that I don't care.  The timer is used as a timing device it cannot be used as a counter.

What if the shooter has a squib or there is some other reason the shooter needs to stop and have the course scored as shot before he gets to the last array?  The RO needs to be able to record every shot as accurately as possible for this reason.

[Sandbagger123]

27 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

First off, in that situation, the RO screwed up. If you are not sure the time is right, you didn't do your job. All the same.... that kind of stuff happens from time to time.... occasionally it even happens at uspsa nationals, and occasionally it even involves famous shooters and past national champions as well as regular joes.... If you like drama, there's a zillion page thread on doodie project about this subject.

Without the drama, I can say that I was credited with a run that was clearly wrong at a recent match (ironically the same weekend as the shenanigans at nationals). As soon as I started comparing times with other guys on my squad I got suspicious, reviewed my video, confirmed the time was wrong, and talked to the RO's about it. They had the same concerns I had, and so we agreed to reshoot the stage, and I got the actual time I earned. That is important to me. It may not be important to some other people.

Sometimes people do go really unexpectedly fast. Sometimes RO's drop the ball and miss the last shots. That's why it is important to pay attention to the timer so you know which one of those things happened, and you don't either credit a famous shooter with a time he clearly didn't earn, or screw over a less famous shooter by making him reshoot after he just really hooked up.

let say for discussion sake i think the time is correct and would like it scored as timed.   does the shooter have any recourse? is it arbitratable ?

[Gary Stevens]

39 minutes ago, CalTeacher said:

What if the shooter has a squib or there is some other reason the shooter needs to stop and have the course scored as shot before he gets to the last array?  The RO needs to be able to record every shot as accurately as possible for this reason.

This. Sometimes every shot is not possible, but it to be desired.

[High Lord Gomer]

I don't believe much has changed since this was argued 6 years ago:

http://forums.brianenos.com/index.php?/topic/98676-looking-at-the-timer-to-see-if-all-shots-were-recorded/

Of course, I don't think much was decided then, either.

[rooster]

If a shooter has a squib, and the bullet is not in the barrel the stage is scored as shot, and the time recorded.  In my previous post I forgot to mention that I also check the last few shots to make sure the timer is working.  As long as it picks up the last shot of the stage I would think that the time is correct.  I f a shooter time is way off the norm of other times and the time is suspicious I would call the cro and let him make the call.

[waktasz]

13 hours ago, pskys2 said:

Have been forced to reshoot at larger matches due to the number of shots being off.  Though each time I'm sure it was correct at the end. Funny thing is each time I bettered my score, the RO didn't expect that.  If you run a course with a unbelievable fast time it's to be expected, but I don't like to do it unless it is real obvious.

Happened to a friend at 2015 Production nationals. One of the ROs was counting shots on his fingers and toes...when the timer didn't match up with his count they ordered a reshoot. I was trying to stop them and tell them they were wrong, but by then some targets were already pasted and he had to reshoot anyway. The RM was notified and the RO's taken to school after that, but damage done.

 

[Sandbagger123]

So the take from this is that its up to the descrestion of the RO to decide if the time is correct or not.  if i blaze through a course and he can't follow me or i find a way that is faster than others and the shots don't match up i am SOL if he decides it wrong and orders a reshoot?    

 

 

[motosapiens]

5 minutes ago, Sandbagger123 said:

So the take from this is that its up to the descrestion of the RO to decide if the time is correct or not.  if i blaze through a course and he can't follow me or i find a way that is faster than others and the shots don't match up i am SOL if he decides it wrong and orders a reshoot?    

 

 

look at the bright side tho, if you are famous and have several make-up shots and a standing reload and still end up with a time competitive with the best shooters, you might get away with it. No one but you (and everyone who watches the video) will ever know.

 

Of course if you are really that badazz, you should be able to do it again on the reshoot, and the RO should be in better position to get the shots.

Edited September 27, 2016 by motosapiens

[Sandbagger123]

i am so interested in this subject because it did not happen to me, but  another shooter this past weekend.  we were at a stage and the shooter was the 4 or 5th shooter. everyone ahead of him shot it in the low 20's.  he shot it in 16 and change. the RO wanted to look at the count as he did not beleive the time was that fast  and as the other RO i told him he can't do that and score it as is.   after that a few shooters came up and did it in even  lower times . i did it in 14 and the top guy at the match did it in 10. 

so how would this be fair to the shooter  if the count did not match timer?  yeah i know to look at the timer the last couple of shots is best, but sometimes it not possible. 

[motosapiens]

that's why looking at the shot count is stupid. In order to make sure the time is right, you need to be glancing at the timer now and then to verify that it's picking up the shots. It becomes second nature if you do steel challenge with all the quiet rifles.

Even if the shot count appears to be correct, you have no way of knowing if it actually *is* correct, because you could have missed 2 shots, but then picked up 2 echoes or shots from neighboring bays, or bumped the timer twice or something.

If the RO is not verifying that the timer is getting the last shots, then it is possible that scores could be incorrect. Most of us non-famous people do not want incorrect scores.

[JAFO]

Had the opposite happen to me at a non-USPSA match last weekend.  I was shooting with a friend I've shot with numerous times.  We usually come pretty close to each other, but at this particular match my time was ~6 seconds slower than him on one stage, and ~14 seconds slower on another.  I talked to the timer RO on the +14 second stage, but he didn't allow a reshoot, probably because I asked after my friend shot, two shooters after me.  This not being USPSA, I didn't have any recourse except to console myself that my 10th place finish should have been 4th.  Oh, well.

We played around with the PACT timer that was being used on our squad after the match, and discovered that it was sensitive enough to register my slide closing on ULSC if the mic was aimed toward me.

Edited September 27, 2016 by JAFO

[motosapiens]

57 minutes ago, JAFO said:

We played around with the PACT timer that was being used on our squad after the match, and discovered that it was sensitive enough to register my slide closing on ULSC if the mic was aimed toward me.

ARGH! Another grievous RO error. That stuff really makes me mad. In the second major match I ever worked, we almost screwed over some shooters with a similar problem. We figured it out partway through the squad. As a very junior RO, I had to stamp my feet to get a reshoot for one of the earlier shooters on the squad, who had clearly gotten a time 7-8 seconds slower than his actual time. I was not the timer RO at the time, but ever since then I have been extra double careful to do what I was taught by CRO's nationals and RMI's in classes, which is look at the time and note it before even issuing the ULSC command. I have also been very careful to pass that info along to newer RO's that work for me at majors and train them to avoid these and other pitfalls as much as possible.