Power Factor

[HQBrass]

Have you ever watched shooters at a local level match and just thought "I wonder if they are making PF?".

I must admit that I have had this though several times over the last few years. I have fallen into this myself. I just bought a chrono and ran some loads across it that I thought were making PF but were coming up a little short. I have since fixed that.

I think that some shooters are just shooting a comfortable pet load and just mark major and have no idea what PF they are making.

Physics is tough to argue with, when you push a bullet out of a gun there is a reaction in the gun. When a shot is fired and there is little recoil and not much of a bang, it makes me wonder.

[BritinUSA]

If you have chrono then you could set up a stage where the shooter engages some targets through a port and set the chrono up on the other side. At the end of the shooter's run, then check the chrono...

[HQBrass]

If you have chrono then you could set up a stage where the shooter engages some targets through a port and set the chrono up on the other side. At the end of the shooter's run, then check the chrono...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is sneaky I like that idea.

[Matthew_Mink]

But you would have to know what bullet weight they are using. If someone is trying to sneak through shooting minor, all they have to do is give a bullet weight heavier than what they are using. More than likely the numbers will come up Major.

I can't count the number of times I've seen the exact same thing though. Some hotshot Limited shooter that looks like they are shooting 9mm. I always wonder if they are cheating or if its just technique.

[Sestock]

You can always set up a chrono unannounced at a match and force everyone to shoot through it.

[Flexmoney]

I can't count the number of times I've seen the exact same thing though.  Some hotshot Limited shooter that looks like they are shooting 9mm.  I always wonder if they are cheating or if its just technique.

I get asked that fairly often...even by my buddies.

[diehli]

I can't count the number of times I've seen the exact same thing though.  Some hotshot Limited shooter that looks like they are shooting 9mm.  I always wonder if they are cheating or if its just technique.

I get asked that fairly often...even by my buddies.

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Do you beat them up and then say "Ask me again, beeyotch! Go 'head!!!"?

[shred]

But you would have to know what bullet weight they are using.  If someone is trying to sneak through shooting minor, all they have to do is give a bullet weight heavier than what they are using.  More than likely the numbers will come up Major.

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Pliers, a scale, and an ULSC round will answer that..

[XRe]

If you're gonna chrono, you might as well pull a bullet and weigh it, too

[Singlestack]

Some hotshot Limited shooter that looks like they are shooting 9mm.

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(the devil made me do it)

[johnhurd]

It makes me shudder to think I am shooting on the same range with anyone that would lie. SHooters don't do that do they?????????????

[ErikW]

Oooh, that's cold-blooded! (Background: The pictured shooter didn't make Major at the chronograph at the nationals.)

You know people wonder whether you are really making Major after you hose down a stage and they ask what bullet and powder you are using.

[BSeevers]

I have surprise chronoed matches and more often than not about 60% that declared major made it. I can tell a lot of times by the volume, even with .40

[XRe]

I have surprise chronoed matches and more often than not about 60% that declared major made it. I can tell a lot of times by the volume, even with .40

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40% went minor, huh?? Hmmmm.....

[BSeevers]

PS I don't think most cheat, they just don't check it. They look at a load in a book and load em up. For example the guy with a .45 200 going 800 fps is not trying to cheat he is just not shooting major. The reason most clubs don't chrono is its hard enough to get help for stages much less run a chrono stage. I think every club shot do it at least once a year.

Now We have caught cheaters and that's a whole other story

[XRe]

PS I don't think most cheat, they just don't check it.

I would expect that - but 40% seems like a pretty high number Of course, I'll be that if you pull out the suprise chrono every once in a while, people will start paying more attention

Now We have caught cheaters and that's a whole other story

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I'd have to bet the difference between their loads and Major is quite a bit more different, eh?? I mean, if you're going to cheat, you might as well do it full tilt....

[davidwiz]

There are a few people in my neck of the woods who everyone strongly suspects shoots Minor but claim Major at local matches (especially back in the days of the 175pf). Since no chrono is used at local matches, it is hard to catch.

At a local match a few years ago, they put a chrono on a stage as part of the stage. One of the above-mentioned persons is shooting the stage - poof, poof, poof and then they get to the chrono and it is BANG, BANG, BANG, BANG, and then afterwards, poof, poof, etc.

Even at bigger matches were a chrono is used, if it is up to the shooter to chrono their ammo (as opposed of some match's practice of collecting ammo from each shooter at the begining of the day), I strongly suspect that some people save their "good" ammo for the chrono stage and shoot the rest of the match with their "other" ammo.

I agree with other people's thought that most who chrono Minor but claim Major is because of reloading error, rather than intentional.

-David

[tigerkf]

I don't think there's any doubt that some chrono different rounds than the ones they shot the match with. Maybe more random pulling of rounds out of a magazine during the match and chronoing those rounds would help. This again relates back to having enough people to help accomplish this task.

[kimel]

About the only way to get around all this is to have "impound" matches. You turn in ALL your ammo at registration. This is dumped into a box, stirred, and the chrono sample removed. The rest of the ammo is impounded, marked, and issued to the shooter from a central facility as needed.

Obviously the logistics of this are terrible to the point of making it a non-starter. But it would be possible.

I would prefer to just let the cheaters burn in the firey pits of hell and get on with the shooting.

[Athena]

Back when I was shooting in the Philippines, whenever we had big matches, the range officers would just randomly get our ammo for chrono. They usually just come up to you at whatever stage they feel like going and pick a magazine out of your belt and take 10 rounds. So you don't really know when they're gonna do it and I think that system kinda works.

[XRe]

They usually just come up to you at whatever stage they feel like going and pick a magazine out of your belt and take 10 rounds.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's really about the only way to do it, and mostly insure that you've got the match ammo from each shooter (as opposed to the "chrono" ammo). At least, that I can figure....

[Crusher]

But you would have to know what bullet weight they are using. If someone is trying to sneak through shooting minor, all they have to do is give a bullet weight heavier than what they are using. More than likely the numbers will come up Major.

A "SNEEKY" RO would scap up the round ejected from the shooter on the Unload at the end of the stage, pull the head and weigh it without ever asking the shooter on a "SUPRISE" chrono stage. Now you have velocity AND bullet weight. Yea I know its NOT OFFICIAL but sometimes its the ONLY way to "catch em"

[BSeevers]

But you would have to know what bullet weight they are using. If someone is trying to sneak through shooting minor, all they have to do is give a bullet weight heavier than what they are using. More than likely the numbers will come up Major.

A "SNEEKY" RO would scap up the round ejected from the shooter on the Unload at the end of the stage, pull the head and weigh it without ever asking the shooter on a "SUPRISE" chrono stage. Now you have velocity AND bullet weight. Yea I know its NOT OFFICIAL but sometimes its the ONLY way to "catch em"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is EXACTLY how we caught one. He claimed a higher weight that "equated to major with the speed of his minor light bullet. Very clever. We knew it wasn't loud enough so we pulled the rd off the ground. Weighed 140 vs a claimed 185.

PS Do a SURPRISE chrono stage this year. You might be surprised >40%??? Heck just watching the body language is fun. You can tell a lot from that.

[Ron Ankeny]

Chronos baffle me. Two months ago I chronographed my ammo after a match and it came in at minor. I knew I didn't have much cushion, but I thought the ammo would go 168. At the last match I chronographed the same ammo over the chrono we are using for the state match and it came in at 170 pf. Now what???

[Nik Habicht]

Chronos baffle me. Two months ago I chronographed my ammo after a match and it came in at minor. I knew I didn't have much cushion, but I thought the ammo would go 168. At the last match I chronographed the same ammo over the chrono we are using for the state match and it came in at 170 pf. Now what???

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Could be a difference in the hardware or software (chrono), skyscreen distance, illumination, temperature, powder lot, primer lot, something out of adjustment on the press --- the variables are endless. I load my nationals ammo in batches of 200 rounds. I pull the first and the last five as well as a random ten from the middle 190 for chrono. If any one round were to sub-minor, the whole batch would be set aside for practice. So far it's worked; not everyone would be so anal.......