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Production Revolver Questions


RippinSVT

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Okay guys, now that I've become distinguished in Metallic, I'm gonna go back and dabble in Production to get my distinguished in that hopefully.  I recently started shooting my K38 Masterpiece in practice and I've been doing well with it...Practicals in the 470's, 470-480 plates, haven't tried mover/barricade yet.  Anyways, the biggest issue I have with it is drawing that long barrel from a standard enclosed leather holster without drastically slowing me down and cutting time real close.  What exactly is allowable in Production as far as wheelgun holsters?  As for grips, I've got some thick wood handles on there that do the trick since I suppose the RO's would frown upon Big Butt Hogues.  How about hammers?  Since it is DAO, is it acceptable to bob the spur, or would that automatically bump me back to Metallic?  I've seen a few "Production" guns that made me roll my eyes a bit, so I wasn't sure how far I could push this stuff.

 

While we're on the topic...has anybody ever got a 125gr load to shoot tiny groups?  I never have in the dozens of 38/357's I've owned.  This thing cuts a ragged hole with Sierra 140's and lead 148HBWC's, but I'd like a little quicker pill if possible.

 

Thanks,

Kyle

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You have no relief on a holster, you can't bob the hammer and you are correct on no hogue big butt grips. I shoot Zero 125's with HP38 or 231 at about 1050 and get good results. If the 140's group better I would use those it only matters on the mover and thats not hard to figure out.

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K frames don't handle a steady diet of lightweight, fast,  jacketed ammo. Stick with  Bayou bullets 138gn wadcutters at around 920 fps and you will be good to go for quite a while.

L frames are beefy where it counts and can take the pounding where a K frame cannot. A stock 586 or 686 will do quite nicely, John Pride proved that.

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7 hours ago, RippinSVT said:

While we're on the topic...has anybody ever got a 125gr load to shoot tiny groups?  I never have in the dozens of 38/357's I've owned.  This thing cuts a ragged hole with Sierra 140's and lead 148HBWC's, but I'd like a little quicker pill if possible.

5.5 to 5.9 gr of 231/HP38 with the Zero 125 JHP is a good load for an L frame, but as others have said, not in a K frame.

 

I think one of the hardest parts to shoot with a Metallic or Production revolver is the left side of the Barricade.  Troy's technique is really solid, you might PM him for some pointers, then tell me of course.  :)  

 

 

Edited by toothguy
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The only way you are going to get groups out of a stock barrel with lighter bullets is more velocity. Nearly all S&W barrels are 1- 18-3/4" twist rate. For 125 gr. bullets, you need to run them at a minimum of 1050 fps. You may tighten up the groups at 1150 or 1200, but by then you are at the bottom edge of magnum loads with a lot of recoil. That's not too bad in an Open gun with a comp, but a plain barrel will have a lot of muzzle flip.

 

K frames are notorious for splitting the bottom of the forcing cone with hard use, sometimes even with a lot of bunny fart PPC loads. Once the barrel splits, accuracy goes out the window and you will have to replace the barrel. I'm getting good groups in an Open class L frame with 6.2 gr. of Power Pistol and 125 gr. Zero JHP. This is with a 1 - 10 barrel with a comp on the end, not really a good load for Production.

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I have always gone slightly heavy on the bullets with a revolver to get the best accuracy. With me driving it my stock 686-3 shoots 2" at 50 with anything 140gr and heavier. I know the best revolver shooter we had here was using 140gr wadcutter and that toy of his would drill mouse holes in a target at 50 all day long.

The difference between 125gr (1000fps) and 158gr (800fps) lead on the mover is 2.25" more with the 158gr with both going at 125pf. I prefer the feel of the heavier bullet in a stock gun. The 125gr feel snappy off the ground and seem to want to lift the whole gun up off the ground before rolling back in the grip. The 158 are a lot more rock and roll and tend to lift the muzzle more when standing but it comes back pretty quick, and was very soft off the ground at 25 and 50. Tends to turn the gun more, but not an outrageous amount more, the 125 tends to lift the whole gun straight up before a small amount of muzzle rise when standing.

Each has its merits and problems. But in general i think with a revolver the 140gr is a good compromise, velocity will be 900ish, so you are just on the outside edge for mover.

The heavier the bullet the less ft/lbs energy to make any given power factor, therefor the 158gr will generate less actual recoil in the same weight gun as any bullet that is lighter. You use less powder of the same burn rate to make the appropriate velocity for 120-125pf.

At the end of the day accuracy is the king, if the guns feels greatt to shoot and groups 10" at 50 you have one problem, if it shoots 1" at 50 and jumps about in your hand like an angry cat that is a different problem, but just as difficult to deal with. 2" at 50 and just a little movement that requires moderate effort and traing to deal with is really what you are after.

In Alan's chart below I have highlighted the likely lead differential you are looking at at 25yards (12rounds) on 1/4 of the match. I think how it recoils of the barricade and prone for plates and practical are the more important thing to deal with. I think 140 - 158gr will be the best way to go in K or L frame. 125gr just too mich trouble.

Quote

 

The amount of lead depends greatly on the velocity of your ammo. On anything under 1,000 fps, you'll be leading off the target at 25 yds. Here's the formula and a chart that works:

Lead Factor for Moving Target

Formula: D / V x 120 = L

D = Distance to target in feet

V = Velocity of bullet in feet-per-second (fps)

120 = Assumed target speed of 10 fps

L = Lead factor in inches

Distance to center from edge of

X- ring = 2"

10-ring = 4"

8 - ring = 6"

target = 9"

800 fps, 45 min. lead

10 yds - 4.5"

15 yds - 6.75"

20 yds - 9.0"

25 yds - 11.25"

850 fps, 42.5 min. lead

10 yds - 4.24"

15 yds - 6.35"

20 yds - 8.47"

25 yds - 10.59"

900 fps, 40 min. lead

10 yds - 4.0"

15 yds - 6.0"

20 yds - 8.0"

25 yds - 10.0"

950 fps, 37.9 min. lead

10 yds - 3.79"

15 yds - 5.68"

20 yds - 7.58"

25 yds - 9.47"

1000 fps, 36 min. lead

10 yds - 3.6"

15 yds - 5.4"

20 yds - 7.2"

25 yds - 9.0"

1050 fps, 34.3 min. lead

10 yds - 3.43"

15 yds - 5.14"

20 yds - 6.86"

25 yds - 8.57"

1100 fps, 32.7 min. lead

10 yds - 3.27"

15 yds - 4.91"

20 yds - 6.55"

25 yds - 8.18"

1150 fps, 31.3 min. lead

10 yds - 3.13"

15 yds - 4.7"

20 yds - 6.26"

25 yds - 7.83"

1200 fps, 30 min. lead

10 yds - 3.0"

15 yds - 4.5"

20 yds - 6.0"

25 yds - 7.5"

1300 fps, 27.7 min. lead

10 yds - 2.77"

15 yds - 4.15"

20 yds - 5.54"

25 yds - 6.92"

Hope this helps,

Alan~

 

I simplify it to 9000 / velocity { (distance [75ft] x 120)/velocity }. Whilst Alans is the original formula, mine is just lazier.

1000fps = edge of target at 25.

 

 

 

Edited by gm iprod
OOps
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I'm not terribly worried about the leads, I'll get them in there one way or another.  Shot the barricade today just messing around and shot a 469-30X first time out, but I see what everybody talks about with the left side being tricky with a wheelgun.  I pulled my factory hammer out and I'll be internally lightening it when I get motivated to fire up my mill, since I can't bob it.  I've been shooting the crosshatched Hornady 148HBWC's at around 830fps and they cut little bit groups, I'm probably gonna stick with a full wadcutter.

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11 hours ago, RippinSVT said:

I'm not terribly worried about the leads, I'll get them in there one way or another.  Shot the barricade today just messing around and shot a 469-30X first time out, but I see what everybody talks about with the left side being tricky with a wheelgun.  I pulled my factory hammer out and I'll be internally lightening it when I get motivated to fire up my mill, since I can't bob it.  I've been shooting the crosshatched Hornady 148HBWC's at around 830fps and they cut little bit groups, I'm probably gonna stick with a full wadcutter.

Anita set the women's record using the Zero 148, double ended wadcutter.  The double end lets you get more velocity than the hollow base wadcutter without worrying about the skirt.  I really like the sticky wax lube that Zero uses, seems to burn away clean without leading the bore. 

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