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3 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:


Thanks, but what I should feel bad about is not getting my load worked out before the match and going minor at Chrono, I shot way too many Cs and Ds for minor.


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lol, that sucks. I had the opposite problem (but I declared minor). I shot way too many alphas instead of moving fast enough to stay ahead of the kid that won. Lesson learned. That's the first non-national match that I wish I had shot major at. Only 1 stage (yours) offered any measurable advantage to minor by my calculations.

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lol, that sucks. I had the opposite problem (but I declared minor). I shot way too many alphas instead of moving fast enough to stay ahead of the kid that won. Lesson learned. That's the first non-national match that I wish I had shot major at. Only 1 stage (yours) offered any measurable advantage to minor by my calculations.


My wife shot minor intentionally [emoji3] and ours was the only stage I gave here a different plan than what I was using. There were a few times where I saw the deltas happening and thought I should make that up but I need all 8 rounds.

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I've said it before, and I will say it again I'm sure, but I think that classifiers are a great test of skill and a pretty great measuring stick of where you are at Nationally. Practice them, get good at them. Draws at a second are well within the reach of most all USPSA shooters. Reloads in the 1.3-1.5 range are certainly doable. Turn and draw at 1.4 or less. If you can do those things, then you can get to a pretty good classification. I think that if I could only choose to shoot 1 drill ever again it would either be Accelerator or El Presidente, because it is so fundamental to every single thing we do in this sport. 

With that said, they are different than shooting field courses. I used to pretty much exclusively shoot and dry fire classifier type skills, and went up in classification pretty quickly. But I was still getting stomped on field courses by lower class shooters and couldn't figure it out. But after awhile those fundamental skills of shooting that I was working on and practicing really did start making a difference, and I started to get better, and now that doesn't happen as often. 

As far as the original question of people being bummed about going up in classification, they are just the sandbaggers that the system finally weeded out haha. They will have to start shooting better so they can compete and get to the top in their new class, which in the long run is a good thing.  

And while I only care about division now, I certainly used to care about how I did in my class. The regulars on Enos/Doodie don't think like most people in the sport, I think most of the people on here are very invested in trying to get better and training, which isn't necessarily true of most people. Hence why most of us only care about division. I think that class win recognition is a good thing, to keep those people coming back. But maybe cut the class awards, just get them a medal/certificate thing and only give real awards to top division heat?

 

::ETA:: That kinda turned into a rant, sorry everybody!

Edited by Gooldylocks
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1 hour ago, Gooldylocks said:

I think that class win recognition is a good thing, to keep those people coming back.

 

congratulations, you are the best of the people who didn't practice hard enough to move up. here's your sign. lol.

you made some good points tho. If one is not invested enough in getting better to be practicing and tracking one's improvement through the overall and percentage of winners and top GM's, a class finish might be the only thing one would have to feel good about, and everyone wants to feel good.

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15 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

congratulations, you are the best of the people who didn't practice hard enough to move up. here's your sign. lol.

you made some good points tho. If one is not invested enough in getting better to be practicing and tracking one's improvement through the overall and percentage of winners and top GM's, a class finish might be the only thing one would have to feel good about, and everyone wants to feel good.

That is what I was kinda getting at, is that for those of us on here it is about more than shooting well and getting gooder class awards are pretty meaningless. But there are also a lot of participants (compared to competitors) that appreciate having something to feel good about. 

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1 hour ago, Gooldylocks said:

That is what I was kinda getting at, is that for those of us on here it is about more than shooting well and getting gooder class awards are pretty meaningless. But there are also a lot of participants (compared to competitors) that appreciate having something to feel good about. 

That reeks of participation medals.

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1 hour ago, Maximis228 said:

That reeks of participation medals.

Well not quite, as one has to still win their class. Back in the days before hip surgery I used to play a lot of USTA tennis tournaments in the Open division. It would not have been fair to those guys with lower ranking/ability to pay entry fees, and play against guys serving 100+ miles an hour. So, tournaments had trophies for all level winners though main prizes (if a big enough tournament) were for Open division only. 

A similar solution could be in USPSA as well. Only division winners get prizes, class winners just get their plaques. That might also curb some of the sandbagging.

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in ipsc we have ranking, but dont use them for result, but you can then get an idea at your level vs others. 

dividing into divisions when there are like 60-80 guys in open doesnt make sense. top of the list, only thing that matters.

Classifiers are a good, and bad thing, its good for getting intial classification, but Im what.. like a B class at classifiers, and M on level 3 matches

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3 hours ago, Maximis228 said:

That reeks of participation medals.

Are you ever going to be good enough to win an Area match, Nationals or World Shoot? Cause if not, then anything else is just a participation medal. Not trying to be rude, but that is just the way that it is. (not really aimed at you in particular Maximis, just "you" in the general sense).

Literally every sport out there has different leagues or skill brackets or class systems so that anyone from total amateur to professional can play. Golf, tennis, baseball, football, soccer, shooting, equestrian events, competitive yo-yoing, everything has a class system. There is nothing inherently wrong with having awards for people that are not the absolute best. I was implying that those people should maybe just get recognized with a plaque/certificate/medal while the actual winners (aka, division) get the real prizes. 

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13 hours ago, Gooldylocks said:

Are you ever going to be good enough to win an Area match, Nationals or World Shoot? Cause if not, then anything else is just a participation medal. Not trying to be rude, but that is just the way that it is. (not really aimed at you in particular Maximis, just "you" in the general sense).

You are correct, my only goal is to win at those matches.

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2 hours ago, Maximis228 said:

You are correct, my only goal is to win at those matches.

But you ignored the entire rest of that statement, so I can only assume that you think every other person should feel exactly the same way you do. So we better get rid of AYSO, Little League, single A baseball, any intermural athletics, semi-pro football teams, every fishing tournament except the Elite Series or White Marlin Open, because all of those are just participation awards.... I think you get the point. 

Not everyone feels the same way you do. Lots of people enjoy participating in a sport, activity, or hobby, and get to feel good about their accomplishments. Not your accomplishments. Not everyone has the same goal of "my only goal is to win at those matches." Lots of people are out just to have fun and hang out with their buddies, and you know what, that's okay. Give them their plaque or certificate, shake their hand and tell them congratulations. Give bass boat to real winner.

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28 minutes ago, Gooldylocks said:

But you ignored the entire rest of that statement, so I can only assume that you think every other person should feel exactly the same way you do. So we better get rid of AYSO, Little League, single A baseball, any intermural athletics, semi-pro football teams, every fishing tournament except the Elite Series or White Marlin Open, because all of those are just participation awards.... I think you get the point. 

Not everyone feels the same way you do. Lots of people enjoy participating in a sport, activity, or hobby, and get to feel good about their accomplishments. Not your accomplishments. Not everyone has the same goal of "my only goal is to win at those matches." Lots of people are out just to have fun and hang out with their buddies, and you know what, that's okay. Give them their plaque or certificate, shake their hand and tell them congratulations. Give bass boat to real winner.

I can not think of a singe sport where you have a bracket system of "Skill Levels" at the top level. Not a single example you mentioned does this. Little league isn't the MLB. Single A Ball isnt the MLB. What is the goal of every MLB player? Winning their division? Absolutely not, winning the world series is. You don't dream as a little kid to be the best pitcher for the Iowa cubbies, do you?

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1 hour ago, Maximis228 said:

I can not think of a singe sport where you have a bracket system of "Skill Levels" at the top level. Not a single example you mentioned does this. Little league isn't the MLB. Single A Ball isnt the MLB. What is the goal of every MLB player? Winning their division? Absolutely not, winning the world series is. You don't dream as a little kid to be the best pitcher for the Iowa cubbies, do you?

We don't have a bracket system at the top either. Once you're GM you're only shooting for HOA in your division.  We can't have a separate league just for the top guys in the country.  How big would production nationals of been if only the dudes who could win shot? 10 guys? We could of got that over with pretty quick.

What other sport can you walk out on the field as a newbie and play in the same game as the best guy in the country and see how you stack up.

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49 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

We don't have a bracket system at the top either. Once you're GM you're only shooting for HOA in your division.  We can't have a separate league just for the top guys in the country.  How big would production nationals of been if only the dudes who could win shot? 10 guys? We could of got that over with pretty quick.

What other sport can you walk out on the field as a newbie and play in the same game as the best guy in the country and see how you stack up.

Ding ding ding! We don't have enough participation at this point to host different leagues, so we have different classifications in the same league. I don't think that giving away class awards for real prize table type prizes makes sense at all, that encourages sandbagging (in my mind). But giving someone a "1st B Limited" certificate on a piece of cardstock? Why not. 

If I were in charge of a major match, it would be certificates to all the class winners, prizes to top Division placement, and random draw prizes for everyone else. 

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2 hours ago, Gooldylocks said:

If I were in charge of a major match, it would be certificates to all the class winners, prizes to top Division placement, and random draw prizes for everyone else. 

I figure it's what you meant, but I'd do the same thing except to edit your line with "first pick of prize table goes to top Division placers in the order of finish."  Personally, I would extend the first pick of the table down through at least the Top 3 in each division, and then revert to random drawing unless the divisions are especially huge and then it might be modified to encompass the Top 5.  Let's face it, if I finished 2nd (or 5th) in a field of 100 in my division but got last pick in a random drawing, I'd walk away feeling more than a little bit screwed.

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IMHO top 3 in each division split the prize table proportionally by the number of shooters in that division. So, theoretically if there is a $100 bucks on the prize table and production represents 50% of the shooters at the match then $50 bucks goes to top 3 production winners. Class winners get a medal, I'm not insensitive to people's desire for some recognition of their hard work. I would never have a random prize table.  Personally I want to see what percentage of the match winner I shoot and hope to keep chipping away at him. 

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I figure it's what you meant, but I'd do the same thing except to edit your line with "first pick of prize table goes to top Division placers in the order of finish."  Personally, I would extend the first pick of the table down through at least the Top 3 in each division, and then revert to random drawing unless the divisions are especially huge and then it might be modified to encompass the Top 5.  Let's face it, if I finished 2nd (or 5th) in a field of 100 in my division but got last pick in a random drawing, I'd walk away feeling more than a little bit screwed.


yes, that is what I meant.
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some sports have separate classes for safety reasons. It's simply not safe to have motorcycle or bicycle riders of vastly different skill and speed competing on the same course. Some do it for competitive interest... no one wants to watch pro-level tennis players beat up on beginners. OTHO, shooting is more like golf or distance running, where everyone is competing against the course. In these events, the only reason to have classes is to make people feel better, because they can pretend they 'won' something by beating other people who don't practice. whoopee.

nonetheless, it doesn't really bother me. If the class participation awards motivate people to show up on match day, and maybe even practice, then cool for the. I will continue to track my progress against better shooters, and simply try to improve. Different strokes.

Trying to 'win' my class, or even a particular match in my division seems like a silly goal. I have no control whatsoever over who else shows up or how they shoot. All I control is how *I* shoot, so if I shoot better than I did last month or last year, then I am happy.

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51 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

some sports have separate classes for safety reasons. It's simply not safe to have motorcycle or bicycle riders of vastly different skill and speed competing on the same course. Some do it for competitive interest... no one wants to watch pro-level tennis players beat up on beginners. OTHO, shooting is more like golf or distance running, where everyone is competing against the course. In these events, the only reason to have classes is to make people feel better, because they can pretend they 'won' something by beating other people who don't practice. whoopee.

nonetheless, it doesn't really bother me. If the class participation awards motivate people to show up on match day, and maybe even practice, then cool for the. I will continue to track my progress against better shooters, and simply try to improve. Different strokes.

Trying to 'win' my class, or even a particular match in my division seems like a silly goal. I have no control whatsoever over who else shows up or how they shoot. All I control is how *I* shoot, so if I shoot better than I did last month or last year, then I am happy.

It must be nice to not be a competitive person. While I see your point about wanting to improve, that is my goal too. But nothing drives me more then having a local guy I can chase that's better then me.  So part of the drive is winning, it may or may not be in my class or division but the goal is there. And I know it will take improvement to get me there. Doesn't seem silly to me at all.  If I go to a major and shoot against Max, I know I may never be able to put in what it takes to get to his level. But that guy that finished number two and was high M in open. That guy I can beat, he didn't get me by much. I'll keep working. And I'd be happy with a class win that know that I worked hard to get. If I get to the point there isn't another number 2 to chase I'll have to try for Max. But until then I'll just keep setting my sights a little higher.

I'd bet there are guys who think just like me all the way down to D class. And if chasing that high D win helps you improve why would that be silly? Does it matter how much he practices? My wife just made C, and she practices more than a lot of the guys she shoots against.  Some of them still beat her, it's certainly a up hill battle for a lady shooter. "Whoopee" she beat dude who doesn't practice.., but he is bigger, stronger and been shooting guns his whole life. I think that's still a accomplishment.

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1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

It must be nice to not be a competitive person. While I see your point about wanting to improve, that is my goal too. But nothing drives me more then having a local guy I can chase that's better then me.  So part of the drive is winning, it may or may not be in my class or division but the goal is there. And I know it will take improvement to get me there. Doesn't seem silly to me at all.  If I go to a major and shoot against Max, I know I may never be able to put in what it takes to get to his level. But that guy that finished number two and was high M in open. That guy I can beat, he didn't get me by much. I'll keep working. And I'd be happy with a class win that know that I worked hard to get. If I get to the point there isn't another number 2 to chase I'll have to try for Max. But until then I'll just keep setting my sights a little higher.

I'd bet there are guys who think just like me all the way down to D class. And if chasing that high D win helps you improve why would that be silly? Does it matter how much he practices? My wife just made C, and she practices more than a lot of the guys she shoots against.  Some of them still beat her, it's certainly a up hill battle for a lady shooter. "Whoopee" she beat dude who doesn't practice.., but he is bigger, stronger and been shooting guns his whole life. I think that's still a accomplishment.

If that's your and wife's motivation, fantastic-- go for it if that's what spurs you on to improve!  Use the tools that work for you!!! 

For me, personally, I get nervous about "trying to beat that guy" as a performance measurement because you're basing your performance off of somebody else's performance.  That's dangerous because you can only control your performance and nobody else's performance.  "That guy" may keep improving and thus make you feel falsely frustrated as you will also be improving "without credit", or he may have a bad day/be ill/have an equipment failure and you beat him, giving you a false sense that you've done something amazing when in reality your performance may have been static.

Going back to using the classification system to track performance, I prefer to pay attention to my percentages rather than whatever "ranking" is attached to it.  I think that's better because (while the class system is somewhat "live") it provides a constant to measure against.  In other words, if I score a 50% on El Presidente in January and 55% in June and 60% in December, that's a real data driven tracking of my performance growth based solely on MY performance as measured on a constant scale.

If I bump up a class in the process, then kudos to me and I'll absolutely pat myself on my back for babystepping my one to one more performance mark.  Do I get bummed thinking that I'm now at the bottom of the new class?  It doesn't even enter my mind.  Instead, I consider it just one step of many towards someday realizing my full potential, whatever level that may eventually be.  Again, it's just my way of thinking and motivating myself-- it's no knock on anybody else's motivation because that's personal to them, and that's the only person it should matter to.  

Just my $.02.  

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I know what you mean, and using my wife as an example again.  She is much more competitive matured than I am. It's hard for her to understand why this game doesn't come easy to her lol.  And I have to remind her that the people she is shooting against are improving too. There is a big difference in the skill level at some of the local clubs compared to just a couple years ago when she had never shot a gun before in her life.

It's hard to explain, but while I may have the goal of beating someone I don't go to a match with that as my goal. My goal of the day is just to shoot the match that I know I'm capable of. And at the end of the match before I even see the scores I will already know if I succeed at that goal. I track my progress more with how I do in practice, and using classifiers similar to how you do. Yesterday I shot a 4.08 el prez, that a 3/4 of a second gain from last time I shot it. That's a improvement, now I need to improve my hits and maintain that pace, Then I'll try to push to go faster.

i guess what I'm saying is finding someone who is at a similar to slightly higher level than me, someone I know works at it.  And deciding I'm going to work my ass off to beat them can help get me off my ass and dry fire. But, I do my best to push that out of my head on match day. Although I think sometimes applying that kind of pressure to yourself is good. It can be a good way to make a club match "feel" like a major match. If I didn't care about how I did locally there would be no pressure to perform. If I don't get used to that pressure at some point then I wont know how to handle it when it's there.

I think we've drifted off topic a little....

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