MrPCHead Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 So I've recently noticed that many Carry Optics shooters are ignoring Appendix D7 21.5. Specifically the section that says: "Note that the weight limits in D4-18 remain in force and relevant." D4-18 says "Maximum weight: Yes, 2 ounces with empty magazine inserted over weight listed on approved pistol list" I saw numerous CO shooters at Area 7 that were using all sorts of extra weights to get their guns closer to the 45oz. overall weight limit for the division, but they are clearly ignoring the above rule. What gives? I emailed Troy two weeks ago after Area 7 but have heard nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkS_A18138 Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 (edited) I need to learn to read! Edited July 26, 2016 by MarkS_A18138 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkS_A18138 Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 (edited) Holy crap I got scared because I pulled the rules and it said 35oz...My new CO is not even close, it's 42oz! I thought it had changed, they need to update the Appendix. Edited July 26, 2016 by MarkS_A18138 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nghthwk1911 Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 I think this is just a mistake and needs to be corrected, D7-21.5 is making reference to modifactions to the pistol, where as D7-18 should supersede the listed weights on the production list with a 45oz MAX.to account for the Pistol with empty mag and Optic. If indeed D4-18 was in affect then none of the pistols would make listed weight from the production list with a +2oz for the Optic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 So I've recently noticed that many Carry Optics shooters are ignoring Appendix D7 21.5. Specifically the section that says: "Note that the weight limits in D4-18 remain in force and relevant." D4-18 says "Maximum weight: Yes, 2 ounces with empty magazine inserted over weight listed on approved pistol list" I saw numerous CO shooters at Area 7 that were using all sorts of extra weights to get their guns closer to the 45oz. overall weight limit for the division, but they are clearly ignoring the above rule. What gives? I emailed Troy two weeks ago after Area 7 but have heard nothing. At first I thought this was just a cut and past error but it will be interesting to see if there is a response from DNROI. The 2 statements can be interpreted as the gun has to be within 2oz of the approved list weight but not greater than 45oz. Standing by for Troy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 (edited) I'd say they have some issues; I just weighed by Walther PPQ Q5 Match (listed weight 26 oz) with standard magazine inserted. With the mounting plate and Delta Point Pro, it weighs in at just over 29 oz. FYI: my original proposal for this division allowed for a 5 oz deviation from the listed weight to accommodate mounting plates and/or milling of the slide. I sent an email to Troy. Edited July 26, 2016 by BritinUSA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric4069 Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 I asked Troy by email if it was now legal to add weight up to the 45 oz limit, he said yes. (That was not my preference btw) Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMedic Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 So I'm confused... So I'm not allowed to add a flashlight on my G34MOS for the extra weight, but I'm allowed to use a SJC Glock frame weight and it be fine? Can I just say my flashlight isn't a flash light and put weights in it instead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nghthwk1911 Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 So I'm confused... So I'm not allowed to add a flashlight on my G34MOS for the extra weight, but I'm allowed to use a SJC Glock frame weight and it be fine? Can I just say my flashlight isn't a flash light and put weights in it instead? No, that is a visible external mod that is why you can't have a frame weight or a flashlight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 So I'm confused... So I'm not allowed to add a flashlight on my G34MOS for the extra weight, but I'm allowed to use a SJC Glock frame weight and it be fine? Can I just say my flashlight isn't a flash light and put weights in it instead? No, that is a visible external mod that is why you can't have a frame weight or a flashlight. Correct. The weight being added for CO is all internal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trgt Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 So I've recently noticed that many Carry Optics shooters are ignoring Appendix D7 21.5. Specifically the section that says: ... At both Area 2 and Area 1 this year the only standard for weight at Chrono for CO was 45 ounces with empty magazine - D7-18. Other than metal grips or guide rod, where would you see folks add weight ("... all sorts of extra weight ... ") that would be still be w/in the rules for CO? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 Other than metal grips or guide rod, where would you see folks add weight ("... all sorts of extra weight ... ") that would be still be w/in the rules for CO? Perhaps inside the grip or dust cover? Lead tape used for tennis rackets comes to mind for inside the dust cover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShortBus Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 I've always wanted to hog out the inside of the dust cover and melt lead tire weights down and fill it up.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caspian guy Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 (edited) Lead shot mixed with jbweld in the bottom of the mag? Particularly since you can have 141.25 mm mags (if I read the rules correctly) Edited July 28, 2016 by caspian guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jester121 Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 I'd say they have some issues; I just weighed by Walther PPQ Q5 Match (listed weight 26 oz) with standard magazine inserted. With the mounting plate and Delta Point Pro, it weighs in at just over 29 oz. FYI: my original proposal for this division allowed for a 5 oz deviation from the listed weight to accommodate mounting plates and/or milling of the slide. IMG_7533.JPG I sent an email to Troy. As of today the Q5 weight has been updated on the Production list (27.5 oz base weight) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trgt Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 Inside dust cover weights, mag weights, oh my ... my CO milled accushadow with deltapoint gen 1 (+ mag) I'm barely 40 ounces -- I couldn't imagine what another 4 ounces would be like ... :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrPCHead Posted July 29, 2016 Author Share Posted July 29, 2016 I asked Troy by email if it was now legal to add weight up to the 45 oz limit, he said yes. (That was not my preference btw) Eric I have yet to receive any response from either of my emails to DNROI. Until I do, or there's an official clarification, I will continue to err on the side of caution, i.e., strictly interpreting the rule as I originally indicated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrPCHead Posted July 29, 2016 Author Share Posted July 29, 2016 I think this is just a mistake and needs to be corrected, D7-21.5 is making reference to modifactions to the pistol, where as D7-18 should supersede the listed weights on the production list with a 45oz MAX.to account for the Pistol with empty mag and Optic. If indeed D4-18 was in affect then none of the pistols would make listed weight from the production list with a +2oz for the Optic. Both my CO guns are within the +2oz for weight limit with the optic mounted. I have no heavy guide rod, base pads, or anything else that would add weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrPCHead Posted July 29, 2016 Author Share Posted July 29, 2016 Inside dust cover weights, mag weights, oh my ... my CO milled accushadow with deltapoint gen 1 (+ mag) I'm barely 40 ounces -- I couldn't imagine what another 4 ounces would be like ... :-) Granted a 10% difference is minimal, but going from 29oz to 45oz is dramatic. I was originally told by several people after the January rules change that I could NOT add weight beyond the +2oz mentioned above. Now it seems people are putting 3-5oz in the base of the 140mm mags, several ounces in the frame plug, heavy guide rods, and probably lots of other places that aren't externally visible. Obviously we are well beyond the philosophical origins of "Carry Optics". In fact, I would submit the pendulum has swung past Production. It's a shame USPSA can't maintain a "minimalist" division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 I agree. It's nice that they raised the weight limit so other models could play, but then they allow adding weight so the plastic frames won't be ousted (again) by the latest fad of heavier is better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrydoc Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 Over here in Victoria Australia we are going to allow a trial of what we are calling " Production Optic" for a hand full of State level matches. We shoot IPSC and are going to allow P/O being any gun on the IPSC Production list with a dovetail mounted optic. They will be scored as Open Div but tagged P/O as the guns must comply with he IPSC rules they will be scored minor. As we don't use weight it should resolve any admin issues you guys are finding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 (edited) My Q5 is more than 2oz over the listed weight with just a DP Pro added to it,,,, i think they should ditch the max weight for CO and just use the Production Gun list with a +/- 5oz range... If they use a spreadsheet instead of the current free form table for the Production Gun list then it would be easy to add a formula for both the +2oz variation for Production and a +/- 5oz for Carry Optics.... that way the chrono check doesn't have to do the math they just read it from the spreadsheet. Edited July 31, 2016 by BritinUSA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrPCHead Posted July 31, 2016 Author Share Posted July 31, 2016 My Q5 is more than 2oz over the listed weight with just a DP Pro added to it,,,, i think they should ditch the max weight for CO and just use the Production Gun list with a +/- 5oz range... If they use a spreadsheet instead of the current free form table for the Production Gun list then it would be easy to add a formula for both the +2oz variation for Production and a +/- 5oz for Carry Optics.... that way the chrono check doesn't have to do the math they just read it from the spreadsheet. That would make a lot of sense I think. As it is now, we are no longer resembling anything like a "carry gun" with 140mm weighted mags, frame plugs, etc. Silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMedic Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 I say let us go nuts, add what ever we want; weights, flashlight, Magwells, spinny gadgets whatever that equals to 45 oz. Go 45.01 oz you get moved to Open proper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrPCHead Posted August 4, 2016 Author Share Posted August 4, 2016 I say let us go nuts, add what ever we want; weights, flashlight, Magwells, spinny gadgets whatever that equals to 45 oz. Go 45.01 oz you get moved to Open proper Honestly we're already there...as long as it's not externally visible. OK, I guess that big, lead-filled base pad is visible, but there's no way to police frame weights. I guess I'm just disappointed that we had a division that was 1) as close to guns most of us carry as we've had in decades, and 2) allowed an optic which my eyes really need, and now it's been warped into something like Open/Minor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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