Jump to content
Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!

Recommended Posts

Current ICORE rules allow the MD to set the second gun rules. What do Regional MD's in your area do. It appears if it is allowed, and approved by the MD, you can show up to an ICORE match with 2 limited division guns and shoot one in open division, one in limited division and also be allowed to pick and choose which gun you shoot first on each stage if the MD has not guided anyone.

So the question or poll is

1) should multiple guns be allowed to enter a regional match? (I think if the MD has room, why not as long as everyone else on the squad understand they will work a little harder resetting so the other person can shoot a second gun.)

2) should the first gun shot remain the first gun throughout the match? ( ?? does not appear to matter at the last regional I shot)

3) should the first gun shot be the only one that counts for prizes and awards? (?? looking for other opinions.)

ICORE has chosen to leave these decisions up to the MD. So, if allowed why don't more Limited shooters take a practice run using their backup gun? Especially if for half price shooting and a second walk? Doesn't sound half bad a plan. Full price to practice and half price to place.

what say you?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you showed up to a match I was running, I would opt for #3. I wouldn't want to turn anyone down for the chance to shoot twice, but practice runs with the same gun could be viewed negatively when prizes are involved. You have pique my curiosity here and I'm interested to see what others have to say. When I've seen shooters in two divisions they were actually shooting different guns.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Last year for the Postal match I shot two guns, Open and Limited. The gun I shot first on each stage was the one I was wearing at the time, So I would not get an advantage on one gun by shooting it second everytime. Ray would just looked at which gun I had one and that's the score card he would put for me to shoot. But there were no prizes to be garnered nor Cadillac for us to drive home. At the IRC's that I have attended The MD would let you shoot two "different" guns, but you had to shoot the first one for the prize table and placement so there would be no advantage of practicing each stage before you shot identified gun you wished to shoot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Giving the shooter choice as to what gun for each stage they choose to begin with does not sound proper even though legal.

Onc solution could be to ask MD's to force shooters to declare a single division for award and prizes. Make shooters start with that gun on each stage. Only allow the second guns time be for score and bragging rights in that division. Maybe make the second gun not eligible for prizes and awards? Waiting for other input.

Edited by Ty Hamby

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Giving the shooter choice as to what gun for each stage they choose to begin with does not sound proper even though legal.

Onc solution could be to ask MD's to force shooters to declare a single division for award and prizes. Make shooters start with that gun on each stage. Only allow the second guns time be for score and bragging rights in that division. Maybe make the second gun not eligible for prizes and awards? Waiting for other input.

Personally, I think your first gun should be the only one that counts for a score that gets reported in the overall or division results. There's a valid enough equity question that I'd rather avoid completely by listing second guns separately or just distributing those results privately.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The investment of ammunition that the shooter is making shooting a second time is not something to be taken lightly. There is another match fee being paid there too.

I'm cool with the second run counting for ranking, but the money and prize table walk goes to the fastest first gun in a particular category.

I'd also like to see the crossover between an eight and a six as it changes the plan just a little. No problem with the second run, but it should have enough difference between platforms that the competitor is solving the problem all over again and not just making a perfection run of the course. I have zero interest in the extra resets for a six/six or eight/eight run.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think 2 guns should be allowed and both allowed to trophy. as long as I pay for both entry's. some will say thats an unfair advantage. I shoot limited as my first gun classic as my second, the round round counts are different so i don't see an advantage. I usually RO the IRC so I shoot on thurs. and I see shooters come and watch and map out the courses of fire. Too me that gives them greater advantage than me shooting the course twice

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not really the answer to the question ask but I shoot Open, Limited, Mechanical (NSSF) and revolver all with a revolver for NSSF and/or Steel Challenge. Usually it's limited to two guns but Mississippi State Steel let's me shoot four, two a day for two days. I think if I pay a second entry fee equal to the first I should have two shots at the prize table. A few NSSF matches discount the second gun soi say not sure on the prize table.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anyone that shoots one gun, then immediately shoots another gun is a  cheater. 

 

Shoot one gun start to finish, dump it in your car, shoot your second gun start to finish.

 

Anything else is cheating, and taking time away from other shooters.

Edited by ysrracer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1) Remember that most matches give prizes by raffle, except for certain wins.  

2) If prizes are by raffle the only issue is placques, so for  ICORE matches with lower participation re-entries would be a minor issue.  

3)  If prizes are by placement, it's a big issue though mitigated in the lower participation matches.

IMHO  1st gun should always be for placement/prizes.  If the participation is low (only 30+ at MW Regional) I'd not care much about it and might even try it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We have allowed two guns at our major matches under the following conditions;  Must be in different divisions, no discounted price,  they are both full price and therefore both are able to win awards and walk the prize table. Can't shoot them the same day, we have you shoot one with the staff and the other in the main match. Trophies are in order of finish, and on some matches  we have included cash in order of finish, and the  prize table is random.  This has worked for us and like they say YMMV.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If everyone has the same rules at a match, then however the match decides to do it is fair. Only issue would be if one person gets to shoot one way and others are told they can't. Pretty simple that way

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Even if the second gun is in a different division you already had a practice run and shouldn't be competing for prizes and/or placement with those who didn't get to practice the stages.  How much or how little you paid the match organizers isn't relevant here; it's all about being fair to all competitors not who paid what.

In the event that someone does shoot two guns it should definitely be on a different day.  I've been squaded with too many two gun wonders who spend all of their time dicking around with their gear and no time helping on the stage.  No thanks.

All in all at "real matches" I'd rather everyone compete once for prizes/placement because taking a practice run at the event isn't my idea of fair.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/14/2019 at 11:44 PM, mchapman said:

We have allowed two guns at our major matches under the following conditions;  Must be in different divisions, no discounted price,  they are both full price and therefore both are able to win awards and walk the prize table. Can't shoot them the same day, we have you shoot one with the staff and the other in the main match. Trophies are in order of finish, and on some matches  we have included cash in order of finish, and the  prize table is random.  This has worked for us and like they say YMMV.

Sounds reasonable, I'd not complain and might just partake! 

I've never bought the practice run is an advantage.  While it's not exactly the same situation I've always likened it to re-shoots in big matches.  

I never turn down a re-shoot at a club match, it is just so easy to lose focus and flame out, so I practice it any way I can.

Heck I have trouble remembering the plan of the stage I'm on!

 

About the only time it helps is in Steel Challenge, and then you need to run it hundreds of times to gain a serious advantage.  

Edited by pskys2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What we did at my regional match this year was allow a second gun at half price but only one was declared for prize table since you walked in the order of finish.  You also had to shoot your prize table entry first on every stage.  No "practice" so to speak.  I put numbers after the shooters names in the tablet to ensure that was easy to keep track of.  It seemed to work well and those who paid the second half priced entry also got another entry into the random draw pool for other prizes.  If you offered up big money for division wins though, that gets a little tricky.  It wouldn't look good if one person walked away with all the cash.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, pskys2 said:

I've never bought the practice run is an advantage. 

 

A practice run sure could help with max traps, swingers and other moving targets.

 

1 hour ago, Alaskan454 said:

What we did at my regional match this year was allow a second gun at half price but only one was declared for prize table since you walked in the order of finish.  You also had to shoot your prize table entry first on every stage.  No "practice" so to speak. 


That's starting to sound more reasonable though I'd rather not squad with anyone shooting two guns.  Maybe I've just been burned by some slackers who didn't want to help but I've had bad experiences with these two gun shooters.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In sporting clays (shotguns) it was turning into a zoo with guys shooting their 20 gauge, then their 28 gauge, then their 410, all right after one another.

 

Finally our governing board, the NSCA (National Sporting Clays Association) stepped in and said, one gun start to finish, then your next gun start to finish.

 

Some people were crying like little girls, but the rest of us applauded it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, jhgtyre said:

 

A practice run sure could help with max traps, swingers and other moving targets.

 


That's starting to sound more reasonable though I'd rather not squad with anyone shooting two guns.  Maybe I've just been burned by some slackers who didn't want to help but I've had bad experiences with these two gun shooters.

Unless you were working as staff, you had to shoot one per day.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, Alaskan454 said:

Unless you were working as staff, you had to shoot one per day.

 

That sounds reasonable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...