Our 929's one year later

[AzShooter]

I'm using TKCustom moon clips.  .035  size and they work well.  I also use Winchester Western brass with no problems.

 

[Carmoney]

The great promise of the 929 was to function with cheap promotional factory ammo.  It was the revolver that would allow easy entry into the division by new wheelgunners without the need for all the tinkering and futzing of special handloads.  (People who already had 627s found no particular benefit in switching, to be candid.)  Unfortunately, the 929 developed the reputation of being finicky, and it hasn't been a huge help to the effort to save the division as we had hoped.  

[Ty Hamby]

4 hours ago, Carmoney said:

The great promise of the 929 was to function with cheap promotional factory ammo.  It was the revolver that would allow easy entry into the division by new wheelgunners without the need for all the tinkering and futzing of special handloads.  (People who already had 627s found no particular benefit in switching, to be candid.)  Unfortunately, the 929 developed the reputation of being finicky, and it hasn't been a huge help to the effort to save the division as we had hoped.  

That was what we had all hoped. Production division included, who buys a gun and just runs it as is beyond a couple matches. 90% of every game gun gets reworked. Much of the ammo problem we see in the 929's are the irregularity of range brass. Combine that with the variety of clips out there and you have a recipe for problems. 627 shooters figured out decades ago that you had to get the right brass with the right clips for the win, and no monkeying around with crap you pick up on the range.

It is truly unfortunate to watch the number of 929 owners struggle to get them dialed in. They should be straight out of the box. Just add your own action job and go. 

[BallisticianX]

I owned a 929 as of May of 2015 if I recall. That ownership has ended as of 9/5/16. This is not a dedicated 9mm. It's nothing more than a short cut to market a "golden gun" for competitors. It is a 38/357 barrel and 38/357 cylinder cut down (.3565 to .3575 bore diameter spec per S&W). Cylinder throats measure to .357" exactly. My particular 929 had a .3571" bore. Of course the rate of twist is 1 in 10". The barrel diameter creates issues as the 9mm uses a .355 bullet with some plated and most lead at .356. Jacketed bullets will not  obsurate to seal the bore with ICORE minor loads, Ive found with most plated and coated lead wont seal the bore with .356" diameter bullets at ICORE PF loads either. (I've shot several different bullets and powder combos during load development...alot more than I wanna remember!) This is evident with extreme spreads of velocity and heavy fouling. When I loaded .357" diameter bullets it tightened groups, reduced fouling and velocities became consistent with lower ES. So now you have to load 38/357 projectiles in a 9mm case. Now the case mouth flare needs increasing and reduces case life to stuff in those .357 pills! The rate of twist does not yield itself to good accuracy with the 115 gr and is only slightly better with 124's traditionally(not a firm rule but usually close) but it shines to 147gr. So a 135 to 147+ gr pill is in order to harness best accuracy. For Revolver moonclip speed loads you want a RN profile...good luck with a commercially made .357" diameter RN projectile in a 135 to 147 gr range. I ended up having a mold made for a 135 RN and Coating them myself and therefore sizing them to .357". Now onto that gem of a cylinder. A 9mm is dimensionally smaller at the base than a 38/357, the 9mm has a narrowing taper to the mouth whereas the 38/357 is straight walled. What you have is an over sized chamber. Or in layman's terns a whole lotta room for the case to expand beyond normal 9mm chambers. That creates two negative impacts; reduces case life with overworking the brass in sizing them down from an enormous fired dimension. It also contributes to cases sticking with so much room to freely bloat up or even split. Now the Titanium material; They built a titanium cylinder to reduces overall gun weight and reduces double action pull with less mass to move within the action. Looks good on paper but Titanium itself does not work well as a material for the intended purpose here. Titanium is a grainy material. It naturally oxidizes on that grainy surface of itself for protection often creating an even grainier surface.  An acid induced surface oxidation also does not produced a smooth surface. You can polish it, but not very well due to the open grain structure and re-oxidation. Though a good polish will help the oxidation be a bit smoother surface but will not last long. The surfaces of titanium and of all commercially produced alloys of titanium have relatively poor wear resistance. In particular, titanium surfaces in contact with each other or with other metals readily gall under conditions of sliding contact or fretting. Even with light loading and little relative movement, complete seizure of surfaces can occur. This situation is caused by adhesive wear in which microscopic asperities on the metal surfaces come into contact as a result of relative sliding and they tend to weld together forming a bond at the junction which can have a rupture strength greater than the strength of the underlying metal. Fracture then takes place at one of the asperities causing metal to be transferred from one surface to the other. The debris so formed gives rise to the accelerated wear that occurs with titanium. So all this adds up stuck spent cases in the cylinder quite often. Use of fast powders(higher chamber pressures)will exacerbate cases sticking whereas slower powders(lower chamber pressures) will reduce the chance somewhat.  A stainless cylinder is a less finicky breed with the same thermal conductivity as the titanium and much greater wear resistance and ability to polish to reduce galling. The only advantage to titanium is weight savings in sacrifice to reliability and wounds to your ejection thumb/palm! I personally had all the sticking problems, went to slower powders, had the chambers polished, removed the un-chamfered razor edges of the charge holes. It improved but was short lived and actually became worse with use. So my estimation of the 929 is that it is not a good design, a short cut to create a market nitch, and horrible fit and craftmanship work from the PC, that is not necessarily specific to the 929 as all PC guns are not worth the extra money. What you pay for and promised to get is drastically undercut from what you actually receive.  The 627 PC I got as a replacement for this 929 was better worked internally when compared to the 929 but has issues such as the barrel being quite canted relative to the frame. Bottom line is I am a Master ICORE shooter, I rely on my equipment to perform. When it does not and causes problems it affects your confidence and hinders the overall performance with or without a actually failure. So thats why mine was sent packing and others seem to be wising up to it. Thats why the price has dropped and more used units pop up on online auctions. If you want one and shrug me off, go for it but dont say you weren't warned!

[peterthefish]

I agree with ^^^ re: the bit needing to shoot 135+ .357 sized bullets for decent accuracy, making the 929 as a gun that can shoot any 9mm loads a pipe dream.

No idea what the bit about oversized chambers is about? The nonsense re: titanium's inherent deficiencies is just that. Never had an issue with sticking, galling, etc... But I know not to f*#k with the Ti cylinder as removing the anodizing has a definite negative impact, and the need for chamfering is IMO pretty small if you're using RN bullets since the cases are tapered, minimizing issues with a case hanging up on the case mouth.

[Toolguy]

For those needing custom weight bullets - get a mold that throws a bullet heavier than you want. Cast some bullets. Weigh bullets. Put one bullet in lathe and trim and weigh until you get it to the desired weight (with your alloy). Measure length. Cut down mold to that dimension. Cast desired weight bullets.

[toothguy]

http://www.bayoubullets.net/38-357-135-gr-rn-1000-ct/

 

[Ty Hamby]

4 hours ago, BallisticianX said:

 Bottom line is I am a Master ICORE shooter, I rely on my equipment to perform. When it does not and causes problems it affects your confidence and hinders the overall performance with or without a actually failure. So thats why mine was sent packing and others seem to be wising up to it. Thats why the price has dropped and more used units pop up on online auctions.

As expressed in my many posts on the subject, I don't shoot 9mm cartridges in any one of my 3 929's. I do own 2 original 8-shot 27's, two 627's, and 3 929's. I am only an A class shooter so I guess I have a ways to go to be good enough to start sicking them. The Mrs. and I are certainly enjoying these new 929's. With these unbelievably low prices I plan getting a 4th 929 soon. Best of luck to you with your 627. 

Edited September 13, 2016 by Ty Hamby

[IHAVEGAS]

Just sent a note to S & W to see what their take is on the 929 not being suitable for use with 9mm brass and common 9mm diameter bullets.

Do not know what/if anything that I will get for an answer, but I think if a lot of people are having issues with a product then it is never a good thing to suffer in silence, and sometimes a manufacturer can provide helpful info. 

If the wheel isn't squeaking it won't get greased. 

[Alaskan454]

I should be picking mine up soon from the FFL, I'm a bit anxious to see what the throat and barrel dimensions look like.

[revoman]

Check Two Alpha Bullets on Facebook they have 135 grain and he will size from .355 to .358. Just give John a call. He is out of Burlington, IA. He no longer has a web site just Facebook. He uses the Hi-Tek coating same as Bayou Bullets.

[MWP]

929s took 2nd, 3rd, and 4th at nationals. One won the IRC in limited. They're the only guns that have won steel challenge national and world titles in the last year.

I've used bullets as heavy as 170 and as light as 84 successfully, all with fast powders. Pretty sure they're fine, and just need a little different load than off the shelf ammo, which is no different than any other competition revolver I own. Benefit is, I can order up another 6" gun with Ti cylinder whenever I want, which is something a 627 shooter can't do. 

[revoman]

50 minutes ago, MWP said:

929s took 2nd, 3rd, and 4th at nationals. One won the IRC in limited. They're the only guns that have won steel challenge national and world titles in the last year.

I've used bullets as heavy as 170 and as light as 84 successfully, all with fast powders. Pretty sure they're fine, and just need a little different load than off the shelf ammo, which is no different than any other competition revolver I own. Benefit is, I can order up another 6" gun with Ti cylinder whenever I want, which is something a 627 shooter can't do. 

No but we can shoot four different cartridges and in reality does size matter between 6" and 5". I have 6.5", 6", 5" and 4". All will shoot with the right load and to tell you the truth I can't say one is better than the other. As far as the Ti cylinder what difference can it make on a good trigger job. I think Randy Lee was getting 4 1/2 lbs with a stainless cylinder. So what more does a Ti  get you? Besides harder to work on for chamfer, reaming and polishing. Me personally I like the stainless and would not give up mine for a Ti. Curious minds want to know?

[Carmoney]

The only real benefit of a Ti cylinder is reduced peening at the cylinder stop notches.  The rest is purely placebo.

Edited September 14, 2016 by Carmoney

[Ty Hamby]

Much of the extraction issue with 9mm in the 929 is due to the clips allowing a portion of the brass to begin movement before the rest. This depends on many factors like groove specs being different on each piece of brass, angle of attack on the ejector rod, sloppiness of clips. All of this works together to create problems through stacking of tolerances. One factor that helps short colts work so well is the clip groove in the brass is tight and uniform, along with tighter specs on the clips help maintain all brass move together as one solid unit. Using mixed 9mm brass is a recipe for inconsistent reloads.  I don't use a U-die since none of my short colts have been fired in a Glock.

[seanc]

7 hours ago, Carmoney said:

The only real benefit of a Ti cylinder is reduced peening at the cylinder stop notches.  The rest is purely placebo.

I mean, you are way more experienced than me, but this has not been my experience.  Every single one of my ti cyinders is peened and have also had that the "skip chambers" peen on the ball cut side that has caused the guns to fail at very unfortunate times.

 

 

[peterthefish]

Much of the extraction issue with 9mm in the 929 is due to the clips allowing a portion of the brass to begin movement before the rest.

Why does this cause sticking? I mean I read the rest of your post, but couldn't get there from here.

[BallisticianX]

Ti cylinders peen worse than stainless. Ask SeanC about his skipping out of time twice rendering the gun useless resulting in him sending it out for repair (once I witness it happen to him. Couldn't even finish the shoot it was so screwed). I don't think he had but a few thousand rounds out of his (have to ask him for exact round count). I had 30,000 rounds out of a 686+ stainless cylinder that I bought used from a guy whom had that many or more...never peen'd that bad ever and it never failed to lock up correctly ( to give you an idea it was enough rounds through it to require .012" of end shake bearings though). . My 929 on the other hand showed worse peening after 3500 rounds and had noticeable end shake already...never got to the skipping point but was just a matter of time. I also oiled the ever loving sh@# out of those stop notches after seeing what happened to SeanC. I figured it might buy me some time.

With brass sticking in the 929, it more than just a case movement in the clip. My array of TK custom clips held them just as firm as any .38 spcl or short colt clip Ive used. I matched clips to brass brand for best hold. Didn't matter on what combo I tried, they stuck. Over the past year I have heard many complaints on Ti cylinder ejection issues. Its just a improper material for the purpose. I am sure some of the sticking issues could have been mitigated with switching over to long colts in the 929 as it would have been the proper case dimension to cylinder bore. But Im sure it would have been a problem sooner or latter with them too with the poor wear characteristics of Ti.

As far as what Smith & Wesson will tell you, not much other than "if your having a problem send it in". They wont admit anything even if they are aware of a shortfall...bad for business. It took me 3 phone calls and stern persistence to finally get the PC head honcho's to tell me the targeted bore specs for crying out loud.

Edited September 14, 2016 by BallisticianX

[Tom Freeman]

I have over 30-40K through one of my 929s.  No extraction issues and no cylinder peening.  Nice happy 355 bore verified with pin gauges.

Edited September 15, 2016 by Tom Freeman

[IHAVEGAS]

1 hour ago, Tom Freeman said:

I have over 30-40K through one of my 929s.  No extraction issues and no cylinder peening.  Nice happy 355 bore verified with pin gauges.

What ammo? If you do not mind. Oh, and what is your method for cleaning/not cleaning the cylinder?

One wonders if Ti eats up S&W's tooling faster than what they are used to & if that is a piece of the quality control issues. 

[seanc]

1 hour ago, Tom Freeman said:

I have over 30-40K through one of my 929s.  No extraction issues and no cylinder peening.  Nice happy 355 bore verified with pin gauges.

355 barrel bore you mean?

I see alot of posts about these guns have 357 barrels and my gun undeniably shoots 358 bullets better, at least in the coated varieties.

That aside, how aside from a pin gauge, does someone get an accurate measurement.   I looked into slugging the barrel and realized measuring the resulting slug accurately is a bit of a trick right?  there are 5 lands so there is not a direct measurement point unless you have one of them fancy micrometers that contacts at 3 points.

Am i crazy?

And X is right, my gun peened between 2-3k rounds.   I fixed it myself after consulting the oracle, I personally wouldn't bother sending a gun back to S&W unless it was unrepairable or parts could not be sourced.

[GMM50]

I slug my barrels by pushing a bullet through and measuring the thickest diameter.  That gives you the diameter into the groves.  The pin gauge method gives you the land diameter.  So your 355 would be come larger into the groves???

Was I asleep in that class?

[revoman]

You do need to slug the barrel to get a true reading and measure the rifling grooves. If not you are only measuring the id of the barrel and if that is what you are basing your bullet diameter on and shoot .355 bullets. There is a good possibility that the bullets are not even engaging the rifling. I may be wrong but makes sense to me.

[seanc]

8 minutes ago, GMM50 said:

I slug my barrels by pushing a bullet through and measuring the thickest diameter.  That gives you the diameter into the groves.  The pin gauge method gives you the land diameter.  So your 355 would be come larger into the groves???

Was I asleep in that class?

Is the thickest diameter directly across two grooves on the slug?

how do you measure? i'm not a machinist so to me a v anvil micrometer is not in the toolbox.   I assume based on your posts you have every tool known...

[Alaskan454]

For 5 groove guns you can get a rough estimate by slugging the barrel and passing it through a throat of known diameter.  I've done that in the past just to make sure my throats were "large enough".  The proper method is using an anvil micrometer as mentioned but I don't have one.