Our 929's one year later

[Ty Hamby]

Just thought I would update you all on my experience with my 929's one year later. Scroll to the bottom if you want the short story. Long story>> read on... Quick back story. Wife was shooting an 8 shot model 27 and I shot a 627-PC. Both 6.5" barrels. We worked very hard to acquire 6.5" 8 shot revolvers that were barrel complainant in Limited Division pre-recent rule change. Once I learned Smith was once again producing a 6.5" Nframe .356/.357 barrel I was excited. This is great news for ICORE shooters everywhere.

Prior to owning the two above guns I shot a 627-4 .38Super and Wendy shot a 627-5. When experimenting with different ammo clip options trying to eliminate the floppy super brass in the dash-4 I learned that short colts/heartco was a fast option. The downside with this option was resizing the short colts back down to .357 spec. so Wendy could use them. I wanted one load we both shared. I quickly learned resizing was not always 100% reliable even after trying 3 separate sizing dies. (I never tried a U-die). In the end I ended up with shortcolt/hearthco that worked superbly in my 38super revolver but was hit and miss in Wendy's .357 cylinder. As any of you married men can attest to, if the Mrs. gun isn't running, no one is happy. So I sold the super gun, acquired a new .357 for myself and threw the bulged short colt brass into the corner, replacing it all with long colts. Long colts that later got cut down to .900 length (38super). Why cut down? Well that is a topic for an entirely different thread.

Fast forward back to one year ago, I picked up my first 929. Remembering how well the shortcolts worked in in my super gun I wanted to re-visit my testing with my shortcolts this time in a 9mm cylinder. Question that remained was, light bullet or heavy bullet? .356,.357,.358? Once I had my 929 in my hand I checked the cylinder throats with my newly purchased pin gauges. .357 in all chambers. So I figured what the heck, lets try .358 heavy bullets in this. At worst, it all blows up in my face and disfigures me forever. So without hesitation I opted to begin testing with a 160gn polymer coated bullet. Upon first testing I was forced to add windage to the rear blade. So much so that I felt there was a problem. Upon close inspection I noticed the barrel to be under rotated. Instead of sending it off to Smith, I figured I would just add one more revolver specific tool to my quill. Got the barrel issue solved and began accuracy testing with bullets and brass I had on hand. Since this is a revolver, and depending on profile of bullet I could load beyond 9mm OAL specs. I started super-super long. My first tests had the 160gn. projectile loaded at 1.25", accuracy became better at 1.225, but I finally settled on 1.20", as I was now getting much better numbers as seen in the picture below. Leaving the bullet long provides for more case volume and more case volume means lower psi on the case wall and lower case wall pressure means less chance of sticky extraction.

Another question also asked of me. "How is them shortcolts working out in that 9mm?" Well awesomely. Combined I would bet we have shot 6k sticky free rounds in both practice, USPSA and ICORE. They act like magnets around an open cylinder. Very nose heavy. Never a single issue has arisen from the use of this combination. Each round is held accurately and tight allowing it to drop not slide in the 9mm tapered chambers swiftly. 9mm taper offer less drag in theory. In theory there is less friction until the round approaches its headspace. Unlike the floppy 9mm/clip options currently available that allow the rounds to bounce off the cylinder walls on their way down. I know I am rolling around in the minor minutia, but these are race guns. We scrape every gram from every friction point, right? "How about extraction"? Well, they practically fall out themselves. This is most likely a result of 2 items. 1) I don't over clean my Ti chambers. I leave a practical amount carbon, or oils, or left over residue, whatever you want to call it to keep the chamber a mirror polish. I introduce no solvents to the cylinder. A brush and a mop is all they ever need. The Ti is much more pores than stainless. Un-contaminated titanium is like sandpaper. Chamber walls like sandpaper does not lend itself well to slick extraction 2) Long OAL. Short colts only get sticky when you over pressure the case. Providing more case volume spreads the pressure over a larger area reducing the pressure per square mm of area. I am sure there is a more scientific way of explaining this. This is the best I can do.
I have done all my own action work on my 3 929's Not because I am unhappy with professional gunsmiths shops like Apex Tactical or Mojo Custom Guns. I have used them both for full race ready action jobs on several guns each. (Apex 3, Mojo 3). They both offer superior gunsmithing skills than I bring and I would use them again when needed. I started doing my own gun work in hopes to just become more proficient at working on my own stuff. Maybe I just need another hobby.

As of now I could not be happier with my 929's. Would I buy another? Sure. Is it better than other 8 shot offerings? No. Well maybe...? If you can get an accurate load that reloads quickly in any 8 shot revolver your ahead of the game. The straight wall clip groove of .38special brass is noticeably faster to reload than v-grooved brass like the 9mm/38super. The larger chamber openings of the 9mm cylinder do offer chambers that are measurably closer to one another, albeit minuscule. These two combined together on paper make a better pair. So again, is the 929 better than other offerings? Nah! But it can be close to as good, assuming you get a good one. Revolvers coming out the Springfield MA these days just aint what they used to be. My 2004 627-4 was probably the best action I have heaver had in any gun I have ever owned. Wish I had not sold it. Should a 929 been available in 2004 I believe it would be far superior to the 929's we are seeing today.

What have I done to my 929's? I purchased and installed Apex hammers, polished the action, cut or bent springs, installed strain screw lock, Installed Dawson .100 x .250 front sights, LPA rear sights. Cut 11 degree forcing cone on one. Cut crown on the other. On the first one I cut the front of the barrel off in an attempt to improve accuracy and maybe also just cause I owned a hacksaw.

The second one was accurate enough out of the box I didn't bother cutting it. My current load has settled down to Short Colt Brass, 160gn. .358 Black Bullet International, 2.9gn N310. 1.20"OAL taper crimp. Dillon 650XL Lee 9mm Decap/Size, F funnel, Lee 9mm seat, Lee 9mm FCD, .38 special conversion kit except Purple case feed adapter.
Here is Wendy's no-cut barrel results at 25 yards.

Here is my cut barrel results at 25 yards

In conclusion, Wendy and I are loving our 929's. We are having great success with them. My wife is enjoying ICORE more this year than any other. She is liking the heavier barrel of the 929 over the 27. Her confidence in the gun is improving and the scores show the same. Our Icore club is small but just last week she got her first ICORE stage win. A stage win that was well deserved heads up against a couple of A class shooters that shot it well themselves. So if you are thinking about adding another gun and don't mind either fumbling with the 9mm round or producing a wildcat round then do not hesitate to pick one up.

[tejano51]

Thanks for the great write up. I am a casual shooter and haven't migrated to short colt case yet, but I am thinking about it. I assume you are not using 9mm moonclips, right?

[Bosshoss]

Great wright up Ty.

Thanks

[AzShooter]

Excellent write up. Thanks for spending the time.

[Ty Hamby]

Thanks for the great write up. I am a casual shooter and haven't migrated to short colt case yet, but I am thinking about it. I assume you are not using 9mm moonclips, right?

Correct! I am not using 9mm clips. I am using the same pile of hearthco .025 clips I already owned. Like many of you we already own the clips. It was cheaper to buy sacrificial rimmed 9mm brass (consumable product anyway) than investing into enough 9mm clips to get me and the Mrs through a major match. I gave away all the .035 clips with my 38 super gun. I am thankful my wildcat rimmed 9mm is working well for us. Anyone wondering the same thing can feel confident that I have now shot +6000 rounds ( I bet is may be way more than that) in 3 separate 929's for an entire year without a single hiccup, stickiness or accuracy issue. The only cleaning my gun has seen in the last 12 months is a brush at the safe table with a drop of oil on the ejector rod.

[mikeAZ]

Good input.... I have 2 929's. Any problems I've had with the 929's can point directly back to me. I had the moon clips made locally and had them built too tight. This resulted in the "sticky" issue. I've stuck with 9mm brass and can FOR sure tell you it comes in all different widths...... I made just about every mistake you can. I agree, 929's like a longer OAL and careful powder selection is necessary. I finally settled on military brass (thinking maybe, it's a little more uniform) and the "U" die as all I have is range brass. Being my worst own enemy, I still get into a jam now and then by trying ammo I've already had loaded. I like my loose moon clips..... Not out a lot of $$$$'s when one of the bottom feeders mashes one.

[tejano51]

Ty, if I make the switch to the short Colt case will I also need to buy a short Colt sizing die and expander die? Lee makes an inexpensive set. Thanks.

[Ty Hamby]

I don't know what parts you currently own or what press. I own nothing "short colt specific" for my press. On my Dillon XL650 everything that happens at the bottom of the brass is for 38special. Everything that happens at the top of the short colt brass is 9mm.

So for the Dillon 650:

Bottom: I am using a 38special conversion kit. This kit includes conversion components that allow you to load .38special/.357Mag. The only parts in this kit not being used for short colt is the .38special powder funnel and case feed adapter. For those items you will need a purple case feed adapter found in the .40S&W kit as well as the "F" powder funnel found in the 9mm conversion kit.
If you own a 9mm, .38special, and .40S&W conversion kits you own everything already. If all you have is the 38 special conversion kit then you will need to add the purple adapter and "F" funnel to your order.

As for the top, I used the 4 die 9mm lee kit found at midway for like $35. Station1 Lee 9mm size die, Station 2 Dillon 9mm F funnel, Station 3 powder check, Station 4 9mm seat die, Station 5 9mm FCD.

In 6 years of ICORE loading I have never used a roll crimp in my revolvers. I have always used taper crimp for my Short Colt, Long Colt, Medium Colt loading. I have never ran a 38special round in an ICORE gun. I have always shot non-canalure rounds as well. (pistol profile rounds)

FCD! There is a lot of discussion around the use of this die. IMO, it is the most misused, misunderstood, and abused die. This abuse or misuse easily causes problems for people. I use the FCD with great success. In this application you probably don't need an FCD like your glocked 9mm setup might, but I use it with success as an added safety factor that help my moons fall in. The trick is to never, ever, add more crimp than just removing the bell. Do not give it any extra turn for good measure. Not even a 1/8 turn. When I think I have it set perfectly, I back it off to verify the bell comes back on the next round just for good measure to ensure I am not over swedgeing the projectile. Adding extra crimp on an FCD will ruin the bullets by under sizing them. Setting the amount of crimp to a level that leaves no bell at the same time adds no swedge to the bullet is how that die needs to be set.

To answer your question about shot colts dies or parts. I have no short colt specific parts. 9mm on top end of the press and .38 special on the bottom.

[tejano51]

Thanks, Ty. I do my reloading using a Lee Turret press. I don't shoot the volume you and your wife. Thanks again.

[IHAVEGAS]

Is there a "but I just want to shoot" option that works well?

I.e. , buy these moon clips, buy this 9mm brass, buy these reloading components, go have fun.

[Ty Hamby]

As reported by others, Floppy clips in a v-groove brass (like 9mm) is finicky. The adage of "buy once, cry once" is one I employed. With range brass you never know what you are going to get. With buying new you get something repeatable. Rounds shot in a revolver are clipped and easy to keep separate from other brass. So no matter if you choose Winchester 9mm, Starline short-colts or something in between, you should concentrate on reliability and repeat-ability vs stuff scrounged up. At this point there is plenty of options 929 owners have to keep their reloads fast, fun, and fumble free.

Just remember "38Special" style brass uses .025 clips and "9mm" style brass uses a .035 clip with each having many variations that cater to most every brand of brass.

[ringram]

Great info thanks!

[Gary1911A1]

I have an interest in shooting in Revolver Division and this thread has been very helpful. Thanks.

[Bamboo]

Ty- have you had any issues with bullet pull out by not dialing in any crimp on the FCD? (Doesn't sound like it) I tried just removing the bell on my short colts in a 627 and had several bullets pull out. Found i had to dial in about 1/2 turn of crimp to stop that.

[Ty Hamby]

Ty- have you had any issues with bullet pull out by not dialing in any crimp on the FCD? (Doesn't sound like it) I tried just removing the bell on my short colts in a 627 and had several bullets pull out. Found i had to dial in about 1/2 turn of crimp to stop that.

I have had zero issue with bullet movement. What sizing die you using? In my experience bullet moving is caused by an oversized sizing die. I had a problem a couple of times and switched sizing die to Lee and problem went away. Not U die just standard Lee. In .38 I own, RCBS, Lyman, Dillon, and Lee. I found Lee to size down to the smallest. Over the years I have ditched most all my dillon dies for Lee. The last time I had a bullet moving in .38 was with an RCBS die. The downside to Lee is the fact it has the least end flair. This can cause alignment issues at station 1 when you pick up speed. For me the tradeoff is worth it.

As far as adding an extra 1/2 turn to keep the bullet from moving. I have not had to do that. The 929 cylinder chambers are a bit oversized at the neck in my opinion. I have found Dillon RCBS and Lyman to resize back to SAMMI spec. I think Lee (standard) sizes the neck down a tick more than the others. This helps eliminate those types of problems. Another note. My cylinders appear to be 9x21 and not 9x19 JM2C

[pskys2]

Ty- have you had any issues with bullet pull out by not dialing in any crimp on the FCD? (Doesn't sound like it) I tried just removing the bell on my short colts in a 627 and had several bullets pull out. Found i had to dial in about 1/2 turn of crimp to stop that.

The powder drop funnel/expander die will make a difference but Dillons are usually about right. For a 45 acp in a 1911 it was always a good idea to take the expander down a thousands I'd chuck it into a drill press and use varying fine wet/dry sand paper to polish it down. The funnel/expander will expand even the tightest sized brass.

But on a Revolver I would question whether we want super tight, might it not squeeze the bullet out? But I still do it.

Great write up Ty, when are you going to write a book? Looks like you have a lot of valuable info to share.

Makes me want to pick up a 929!

[matteekay]

Excellent write-up, thank you! I'm eventually going to pick up an 8-shot and still strongly considering the 929.

[BeerBaron]

great write up. I've been thinking about a revolver to play in IPSC revolver division and steel challenge and perhaps the odd ICORE match.

I was super excited when the 929 was released.....then I heard all the things like forcing cone cut off centre, sticky extraction, poor barrel crown, barrel oversize for 9mm etc etc. which make me think twice.

I saw a nice 38 super 627PC for sale and nearly bought that instead (a friend snapped it up).

so now I'm back to thinking on a 929. your thread has given me some hope. but as a guy who is firmly in the bottom feeder camp I'm not sure I'm too keen on buying one and then having to crown it, cut the forcing cone etc by my self. it's a shame smith quality has fallen so far. I've seen it with other makers too in recent years.

anyway, I have some thinking to do but your thread was a great piece of info in my research. thank you.

[Ty Hamby]

BeerBaron, 

Just do it. Pick one up. Give it a little love to polish and finish off where Smith left off and you will be happy. 

[matteekay]

Ty,

What do you think about one of these for someone who isn't doing custom hand-loads? Is it still viable? 

[Ty Hamby]

47 minutes ago, matteekay said:

Ty,

What do you think about one of these for someone who isn't doing custom hand-loads? Is it still viable? 

I can not answer that. I have done zero testing with any stock ammo. I have shot no 9mm out of any of my 929s. There should be tons of info her in other threads. 

[AzShooter]

I've had no problems shooting Federal American Eagle factory ammo out of my 929.  Bought 1000 so I would have a good supply of brass.  My 929 is tuned and has an Apex Hammer and Firing Pin.  Factory goes off at 6 lbs.  Reloads with Federal Small Pistol Primers is reliable at 5 lbs.

[Ty Hamby]

8 minutes ago, AzShooter said:

I've had no problems shooting Federal American Eagle factory ammo out of my 929.  Bought 1000 so I would have a good supply of brass.  My 929 is tuned and has an Apex Hammer and Firing Pin.  Factory goes off at 6 lbs.  Reloads with Federal Small Pistol Primers is reliable at 5 lbs.

Like!

[matteekay]

Agreed. Thank you!

[matteekay]

1 hour ago, AzShooter said:

I've had no problems shooting Federal American Eagle factory ammo out of my 929.  Bought 1000 so I would have a good supply of brass.  My 929 is tuned and has an Apex Hammer and Firing Pin.  Factory goes off at 6 lbs.  Reloads with Federal Small Pistol Primers is reliable at 5 lbs.

What moon clips are you using? I know certain brands of clip like certain brands of ammo more than others.

Also, what's your spring setup like?