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Question about, starting without magazines.


DocMedic

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And so discipline flies right out the window... :roflol:

it has already flown. How many times have you called a procedural for coaching? because I guarantee if you are an RO you have been present for last minute advice after the make-ready command. No one ever calls it, but now this situation seems a small percentage worse so some want to call it here. Seems like inconsistent enforcement to do it that way. Seems more consistent to do it the way it seems to have always been done, which is not worry too much about communication that happens before the start beep.

I've called a couple, and seen a couple called. I've not experienced coaching/assisting/"Mr. Helper-ing" at major matched, at least at this end of the country.

"We've always done it this way" isn't, IMHO, a good way to do things. Just sayin'.

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And so discipline flies right out the window... :roflol:

it has already flown. How many times have you called a procedural for coaching? because I guarantee if you are an RO you have been present for last minute advice after the make-ready command. No one ever calls it, but now this situation seems a small percentage worse so some want to call it here. Seems like inconsistent enforcement to do it that way. Seems more consistent to do it the way it seems to have always been done, which is not worry too much about communication that happens before the start beep.

I've called a couple, and seen a couple called. I've not experienced coaching/assisting/"Mr. Helper-ing" at major matched, at least at this end of the country.

"We've always done it this way" isn't, IMHO, a good way to do things. Just sayin'.

thank you for your unceasing efforts to keep the sport in line with the rules. I have heard that your end of the country is a leader in rules compliance.

Edited by motosapiens
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which is not worry too much about communication that happens before the start beep.

Exactly. That isn't a bad thing in my opinion. Sometimes it seems there is an abundance of schadenfreude in this sport.

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newer shooter. shooting course and forgets to reload. you hear "reload" from the peanut gallery. shooter does reload after the "reload " shout. Can not determine who yelled" reload". what would the course of action be?

is this an L1 match? if so, probably nothing, although it might trigger a discussion of what constitutes coaching and what is acceptable under the rules.

if it's an L2 or higher, probably just explain to the squad and ask them not to do it again, while keeping rule #1 in mind (paraphrased, don't experience schadenfreude).

I was coaching mrs moto last night at her first steel challenge match. thankfully I didn't have to tell her to reload, although she did go to slide lock once or twice to hit the last target (shooting ss minor).

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8.6.2 Any person providing interference or unauthorized assistance to a competitor during a course of fire (and the competitor receiving such assistance) may, at the discretion of a Range Officer, incur a 34 USPSA Handgun Rules, February 2014 Edition procedural penalty for that stage and/or be subject to Section 10.6

I would not, and hope that others wouldn't as well, issue a procedural if someone told the shooter they didn't have mags.

Would you inform the shooter he forgot to rack a round into the chamber? Or that he forgot to put a mag in the gun? Or allow somebody else to do so?

No.......see that is that discretion thing.

So I don't understand why you would let somebody else assist the shooter (by telling him he forgot his mags)? It's not our job to fix his/her problems, it's to provide the structure and safety for his run.

Pretty simple, the rules say it is at the discretion of the RO, following the rules is not "allowing" anything. I think it would be beyond absurd to give a procedural in this case, but hey, whatever it takes I guess.

And in case you are wondering and can't see the difference.......big difference between someone telling a shooter at MR they don't have any mags and yelling...."don't forget that target".

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You're a kind man. Hopefully this is at either an outlaw match or a LI USPSA match, and with the RO's permission. And hopefully only with newbies, because someone with any experience needs to take responsibility for his own run.
no, i'm a dick, but I have observed this behavior at every major match I've shot.

Huh. I've never seen this at any major match I've shot. Literally ever. I've only gone to an average or 3-4 major matches a year for about 9 years, though, so there are plenty of people with more experience than I have. But....I've NEVER, at a major match, seen any competitor give advice, commentary, or speak to the shooter after the make ready command was given, UNLESS the shooter specifically said something along the lines of "Oh crap, I forgot X, it is on my bag, could someone grab it for me."

Literally, never seen the behavior you list.

because I guarantee if you are an RO you have been present for last minute advice after the make-ready command

No. You can't guarantee that, because I've never seen it at any Level II or higher match I've shot or worked. Ever.

No one is around the shooter at make ready. No one else is in the shooting area, or around the start position. As such, someone would (since we are all wearing hearing protection) have to literally be yelling at the shooter after the make ready command.

Never seen it at L2 or higher. (Maybe things are different away from A3, A5, IL Sectional, Production Nats, Great Plains Sectional, Double Tap, Minnesota Sectional...?)

Once "Make Ready" has been given, the course of fire has started. No coaching. It is up to the shooter at that point. Someone tells them they didn't put a round in the chamber, that's going to be a procedural. Because those are the rules.

And among other things, if you want to create a situation where local shooters with friends get corrective help before the start signal, but non-local shooters get screwed because no one cares about helping them, then allowing coaching and commentary once the course of fire has begun is a great way to create that imbalance.

For me (and every L2 on up match I've seen), once the course of fire has begun, it is up to the shooter.

(edited because like always, I found typos after I hit "post")

Edited by Thomas H
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Not pistol related but at a Shotgun match a shooter everyone on the squad knows and likes went to the line leaving his shell vest on a table. The only comments after he loaded from his pocket still not realizing it was "This is gonna be good". No other comments from the gallery until he went to reload. then it was "Forget something?"

Edited by Round_Gun_Shooter
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You're a kind man. Hopefully this is at either an outlaw match or a LI USPSA match, and with the RO's permission. And hopefully only with newbies, because someone with any experience needs to take responsibility for his own run.
no, i'm a dick, but I have observed this behavior at every major match I've shot.

Huh. I've never seen this at any major match I've shot. Literally ever. I've only gone to an average or 3-4 major matches a year for about 9 years, though, so there are plenty of people with more experience than I have. But....I've NEVER, at a major match, seen any competitor give advice, commentary, or speak to the shooter after the make ready command was given, UNLESS the shooter specifically said something along the lines of "Oh crap, I forgot X, it is on my bag, could someone grab it for me."

Literally, never seen the behavior you list.

sorry. i don't believe you. I believe you have never noticed it tho, because most people don't notice because it's so routine.

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You're a kind man. Hopefully this is at either an outlaw match or a LI USPSA match, and with the RO's permission. And hopefully only with newbies, because someone with any experience needs to take responsibility for his own run.
no, i'm a dick, but I have observed this behavior at every major match I've shot.

Huh. I've never seen this at any major match I've shot. Literally ever. I've only gone to an average or 3-4 major matches a year for about 9 years, though, so there are plenty of people with more experience than I have. But....I've NEVER, at a major match, seen any competitor give advice, commentary, or speak to the shooter after the make ready command was given, UNLESS the shooter specifically said something along the lines of "Oh crap, I forgot X, it is on my bag, could someone grab it for me."

Literally, never seen the behavior you list.

sorry. i don't believe you. I believe you have never noticed it tho, because most people don't notice because it's so routine.

Interesting assumption, considering it is literally against the rules. And I've seen people get procedurals for it. And at local matches, ROs have discussed this behavior in a "don't do that, you'll get a procedural" format.

Maybe people just talk a lot more where you are from.

But oddly enough, if I'm running a shooter, I can hear everything that gets said to them. (If they could hear it, I could hear it.) And oddly enough, if I'm running a shooter I tend to pay pretty close attention to what's going on with him.

I mean, if around you so many people break the rules that it is so routine that people don't even notice it anymore, okay. But around here....that simply isn't true.

We follow the rules. Sorry to hear that where you are, it is so routine to ignore the rules that people don't even notice.

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8.6.2 Any person providing interference or unauthorized assistance to a competitor during a course of fire (and the competitor receiving such assistance) may, at the discretion of a Range Officer, incur a 34 USPSA Handgun Rules, February 2014 Edition procedural penalty for that stage and/or be subject to Section 10.6

I would not, and hope that others wouldn't as well, issue a procedural if someone told the shooter they didn't have mags.

Would you inform the shooter he forgot to rack a round into the chamber? Or that he forgot to put a mag in the gun? Or allow somebody else to do so?

No.......see that is that discretion thing.

You might want to read the first paragraph in 8.1. The RO is specifically prohibited from telling the shooter he forgot to load his firearm. To me if anyone else does it they are going to get a coaching penalty. To me there is no discretion on that allowed by the rules verbiage and intent. Remember, where this sport came from. If you are not smart enough to load your gun before the stage, you get what you deserve, a nasty malfunction drill.

Jay

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