Question about, starting without magazines.

[mreed911]

I was going to post that I wondered how many people would start parking their range bag close to the shooting area so they could access it without leaving the COF.

But then I remembered that unless otherwise stipulated, all mags must start on belt.

Let's say the shooter was able to retrieve mags from their range bag without even holstering their gun and keeping it safely pointed downrange. The question now is how many procedurals they would get for using a mag that didn't start on their belt or other stipulated location.

One per shot?

One per mag for each mag not starting on belt?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

technically an empty mag would violate the rule, so from that, rounds shouldn't matter Edited June 24, 2016 by mreed911

[d_striker]

I was going to post that I wondered how many people would start parking their range bag close to the shooting area so they could access it without leaving the COF.

But then I remembered that unless otherwise stipulated, all mags must start on belt.

Let's say the shooter was able to retrieve mags from their range bag without even holstering their gun and keeping it safely pointed downrange. The question now is how many procedurals they would get for using a mag that didn't start on their belt or other stipulated location.

One per shot?

One per mag for each mag not starting on belt?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

technically an empty mag would violate the rule, so from that, rounds shouldn't matter

That was an "I don't know" shoulder shrug....

I like that rationale.

[ChuckS]

What rule allows a shooter the leave the shooting area to get anything after the make ready and before the RIC ?

I think the problem being discussed wrt a shooter leaving the stage after the start signal is that there isn't a rule that forbids it (assuming they unloaded, close the slide, drop the hammer, and holster). Perhaps you could consider a DQ for unsafe gun handling under the "...but are not limited to:" clause of 10.5., or for unsportsmanlike conduct under the "...failing to comply with the reasonable directions of a Match Official,..." clause of 10.6.1. Either of those could end up going to arbitration, and there's no specific rule to point to that they violated.

I was going to post that I wondered how many people would start parking their range bag close to the shooting area so they could access it without leaving the COF.

But then I remembered that unless otherwise stipulated, all mags must start on belt.

Let's say the shooter was able to retrieve mags from their range bag without even holstering their gun and keeping it safely pointed downrange. The question now is how many procedurals they would get for using a mag that didn't start on their belt or other stipulated location.

One per shot?

One per mag for each mag not starting on belt?

The rule is :

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose.

The rule is "carried". With no definition of carried in the USPSA glossary, I took a look at dictionary.com:

carry

[kar-ee]

verb (used with object), carried, carrying.

1.

to take or support from one place to another; convey; transport:

He carried her for a mile in his arms. This elevator cannot carry more than ten people.

So, the way I see it, if the shooter goes back to the range bag, puts the mags in the carriers as per 5.2.4 and then carries the mags back to the COF, no penalty

[d_striker]

What rule allows a shooter the leave the shooting area to get anything after the make ready and before the RIC ?

I think the problem being discussed wrt a shooter leaving the stage after the start signal is that there isn't a rule that forbids it (assuming they unloaded, close the slide, drop the hammer, and holster). Perhaps you could consider a DQ for unsafe gun handling under the "...but are not limited to:" clause of 10.5., or for unsportsmanlike conduct under the "...failing to comply with the reasonable directions of a Match Official,..." clause of 10.6.1. Either of those could end up going to arbitration, and there's no specific rule to point to that they violated.

I was going to post that I wondered how many people would start parking their range bag close to the shooting area so they could access it without leaving the COF.

But then I remembered that unless otherwise stipulated, all mags must start on belt.

Let's say the shooter was able to retrieve mags from their range bag without even holstering their gun and keeping it safely pointed downrange. The question now is how many procedurals they would get for using a mag that didn't start on their belt or other stipulated location.

One per shot?

One per mag for each mag not starting on belt?

The rule is :

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose.

The rule is "carried". With no definition of carried in the USPSA glossary, I took a look at dictionary.com:

carry

[kar-ee]

verb (used with object), carried, carrying.

1.

to take or support from one place to another; convey; transport:

He carried her for a mile in his arms. This elevator cannot carry more than ten people.

So, the way I see it, if the shooter goes back to the range bag, puts the mags in the carriers as per 5.2.4 and then carries the mags back to the COF, no penalty

Genius...

[Sarge]

What rule allows a shooter the leave the shooting area to get anything after the make ready and before the RIC ?

I think the problem being discussed wrt a shooter leaving the stage after the start signal is that there isn't a rule that forbids it (assuming they unloaded, close the slide, drop the hammer, and holster). Perhaps you could consider a DQ for unsafe gun handling under the "...but are not limited to:" clause of 10.5., or for unsportsmanlike conduct under the "...failing to comply with the reasonable directions of a Match Official,..." clause of 10.6.1. Either of those could end up going to arbitration, and there's no specific rule to point to that they violated.

I was going to post that I wondered how many people would start parking their range bag close to the shooting area so they could access it without leaving the COF.

But then I remembered that unless otherwise stipulated, all mags must start on belt.

Let's say the shooter was able to retrieve mags from their range bag without even holstering their gun and keeping it safely pointed downrange. The question now is how many procedurals they would get for using a mag that didn't start on their belt or other stipulated location.

One per shot?

One per mag for each mag not starting on belt?

Actually after reading the rules and new posts I don't see why he can't pick them up and place them in his pouches and the reload and carry on Edited June 24, 2016 by Sarge

[Sarge]

Of course I think we all have to realize this is all pretty far fetched

[George Jones]

What I think is far fetched is a concept of a Range Officer allowing a shooter to leave the COF and proceed uprange with a gun which has not completed the USC process to Range is Clear.

[bret]

What I think is far fetched is a concept of a Range Officer allowing a shooter to leave the COF and proceed uprange with a gun which has not completed the USC process to Range is Clear.

I agree.

[JAFO]

What I think is far fetched is a concept of a Range Officer allowing a shooter to leave the COF and proceed uprange with a gun which has not completed the USC process to Range is Clear.

You're not alone. But what rule would you cite for a DQ, should the shooter proceed to go for mags with a loaded gun (loaded in the sense that he/she has not gone through USC)? There doesn't seem to be a rule to point to that says a shooter cannot leave the COF with a loaded gun while under direct supervision of a Range Official.

10.5.13 doesn't seem to apply, since they have the loaded firearm as a result of being under the RO's supervision.

Would it be 10.6.1 for failing to comply with a Range Official?

[George Jones]

I said nothing about a DQ.

The STOP command should be used to prevent what is a predictable safety condition. Failure to respond to the STOP command result in 10.6.1

Having said that, there is (currently) no rule to support anything except a reshoot if the shooter is stopped and stops.

As far fetched as this scenario might be, I suggest this is a "loophole" which deserves fixing. Gaming is not a bad word unless it results in a safety problem.

[Nik Habicht]

I said nothing about a DQ.

The STOP command should be used to prevent what is a predictable safety condition. Failure to respond to the STOP command result in 10.6.1

Having said that, there is (currently) no rule to support anything except a reshoot if the shooter is stopped and stops.

As far fetched as this scenario might be, I suggest this is a "loophole" which deserves fixing. Gaming is not a bad word unless it results in a safety problem.

So, playing Devil's advocate here -- how does the RM/RMI group feel about upholding a 10.5 DQ? Is that one of those situations that by default triggers a need for another subsection of 10.5 -- because we've now identified another safety concern?

[George Jones]

None of the 10.5s work.

Stay tuned.

[Nik Habicht]

None of the 10.5s work.

Stay tuned.

Right -- I get that. I was thinking about citing 10.5 without any numbers after that -- since the language there suggests that the .xx sections following are not an exclusive list....

That got me to further thinking -- that assuming such a call were made by an RO, upheld by CRO and RM, and even successful at arbitration -- we should probably propose a new subsection of 10.5 at that point, as we had identified another unsafe condition.

Of course if we can do that proactively -- and write 10.5.18 now, that would be a better solution....

[George Jones]

Patience.

[Strick]

8.6.2 Any person providing interference or unauthorized assistance to a competitor during a course of fire (and the competitor receiving such assistance) may, at the discretion of a Range Officer, incur a 34 USPSA Handgun Rules, February 2014 Edition procedural penalty for that stage and/or be subject to Section 10.6

I would not, and hope that others wouldn't as well, issue a procedural if someone told the shooter they didn't have mags.

[teros135]

8.6.2 Any person providing interference or unauthorized assistance to a competitor during a course of fire (and the competitor receiving such assistance) may, at the discretion of a Range Officer, incur a 34 USPSA Handgun Rules, February 2014 Edition procedural penalty for that stage and/or be subject to Section 10.6

I would not, and hope that others wouldn't as well, issue a procedural if someone told the shooter they didn't have mags.

Would you inform the shooter he forgot to rack a round into the chamber? Or that he forgot to put a mag in the gun? Or allow somebody else to do so?

[Strick]

8.6.2 Any person providing interference or unauthorized assistance to a competitor during a course of fire (and the competitor receiving such assistance) may, at the discretion of a Range Officer, incur a 34 USPSA Handgun Rules, February 2014 Edition procedural penalty for that stage and/or be subject to Section 10.6

I would not, and hope that others wouldn't as well, issue a procedural if someone told the shooter they didn't have mags.

Would you inform the shooter he forgot to rack a round into the chamber? Or that he forgot to put a mag in the gun? Or allow somebody else to do so?

No.......see that is that discretion thing.

[teros135]

8.6.2 Any person providing interference or unauthorized assistance to a competitor during a course of fire (and the competitor receiving such assistance) may, at the discretion of a Range Officer, incur a 34 USPSA Handgun Rules, February 2014 Edition procedural penalty for that stage and/or be subject to Section 10.6

I would not, and hope that others wouldn't as well, issue a procedural if someone told the shooter they didn't have mags.

Would you inform the shooter he forgot to rack a round into the chamber? Or that he forgot to put a mag in the gun? Or allow somebody else to do so?

No.......see that is that discretion thing.

So I don't understand why you would let somebody else assist the shooter (by telling him he forgot his mags)? It's not our job to fix his/her problems, it's to provide the structure and safety for his run.

[motosapiens]

8.6.2 Any person providing interference or unauthorized assistance to a competitor during a course of fire (and the competitor receiving such assistance) may, at the discretion of a Range Officer, incur a 34 USPSA Handgun Rules, February 2014 Edition procedural penalty for that stage and/or be subject to Section 10.6

I would not, and hope that others wouldn't as well, issue a procedural if someone told the shooter they didn't have mags.

Would you inform the shooter he forgot to rack a round into the chamber? Or that he forgot to put a mag in the gun? Or allow somebody else to do so?

No.......see that is that discretion thing.

So I don't understand why you would let somebody else assist the shooter (by telling him he forgot his mags)? It's not our job to fix his/her problems, it's to provide the structure and safety for his run.

before the start beep, we all let other people assist the shooter, by reminding them to watch their sights, and various other generic advice. I would let someone point out that a shoelace was untied too, or a shirt not tucked in, or a camera not turned on.

[Thomas H]

before the start beep, we all let other people assist the shooter, by reminding them to watch their sights, and various other generic advice. I would let someone point out that a shoelace was untied too, or a shirt not tucked in, or a camera not turned on.

Before the start beep? Or before the "make ready" command, which signifies the start of the course of fire?

Edited June 30, 2016 by Thomas H

[teros135]

8.6.2 Any person providing interference or unauthorized assistance to a competitor during a course of fire (and the competitor receiving such assistance) may, at the discretion of a Range Officer, incur a 34 USPSA Handgun Rules, February 2014 Edition procedural penalty for that stage and/or be subject to Section 10.6

I would not, and hope that others wouldn't as well, issue a procedural if someone told the shooter they didn't have mags.

Would you inform the shooter he forgot to rack a round into the chamber? Or that he forgot to put a mag in the gun? Or allow somebody else to do so?

No.......see that is that discretion thing.

So I don't understand why you would let somebody else assist the shooter (by telling him he forgot his mags)? It's not our job to fix his/her problems, it's to provide the structure and safety for his run.

before the start beep, we all let other people assist the shooter, by reminding them to watch their sights, and various other generic advice. I would let someone point out that a shoelace was untied too, or a shirt not tucked in, or a camera not turned on.

You're a kind man. Hopefully this is at either an outlaw match or a LI USPSA match, and with the RO's permission. And hopefully only with newbies, because someone with any experience needs to take responsibility for his own run.

[motosapiens]

before the start beep, we all let other people assist the shooter, by reminding them to watch their sights, and various other generic advice. I would let someone point out that a shoelace was untied too, or a shirt not tucked in, or a camera not turned on.

Before the start beep? Or before the "make ready" command, which signifies the start of the course of fire?

before the start beep, after the make ready command. I have routinely seen it at area and national matches. I have never yet seen an RO take issue with it.

It is difficult for me to discern the substantive difference between these acts of 'coaching' and encouragement, and reminding someone to bring their mags.

[motosapiens]

You're a kind man. Hopefully this is at either an outlaw match or a LI USPSA match, and with the RO's permission. And hopefully only with newbies, because someone with any experience needs to take responsibility for his own run.

no, i'm a dick, but I have observed this behavior at every major match I've shot.

[teros135]

And so discipline flies right out the window...

[motosapiens]

And so discipline flies right out the window...

it has already flown. How many times have you called a procedural for coaching? because I guarantee if you are an RO you have been present for last minute advice after the make-ready command. No one ever calls it, but now this situation seems a small percentage worse so some want to call it here. Seems like inconsistent enforcement to do it that way. Seems more consistent to do it the way it seems to have always been done, which is not worry too much about communication that happens before the start beep.