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DocMedic

Question about, starting without magazines.

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First, no problem with the starting mag from the pocket. That is OK by rule.

A shooter cannot leave the stage until the Range Is Clear. That could only happen if the shooter "surrendered" by complying with "If you are finished....". In other words, his stage is done. Time and score.

Anyone telling the shooter he forgot his mags (after the Make Ready command) would be guilty of coaching and would receive a procedural penalty.

:cheers:

George, question...What if the person telling the shooter he forgot his mags after the make ready was not shooting the match...was just a bystander/observer?

10.6.2 Other persons may be expelled from the range for conduct which a Range Officer deems to be unacceptable. Examples of unacceptable conduct include, but are not limited to, failing to comply with the rea- sonable directions of a Match Official, interference with the operation of a course of fire and/or a competitor’s attempt thereof, and any other behavior likely to bring the sport into disrepute

Yes, but who gets the procedural penalty?

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8.6.2 allows for a procedural for the person coaching and the shooter, as well as possibly making them subject to 10.6

So procedural to the shooter for his non-shooter buddy coaching. If he wants to make a stink about it, or just decides to "coach" all the shooters, then 10.6.2 expelled from the range

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I would let a guy with a holstered unloaded gun do what he wanted just for the free entertainment. Gonna zero the stage anyway

Have you checked the gun to ensure that it's clear?

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8.6.2 allows for a procedural for the person coaching and the shooter, as well as possibly making them subject to 10.6

So procedural to the shooter for his non-shooter buddy coaching. If he wants to make a stink about it, or just decides to "coach" all the shooters, then 10.6.2 expelled from the range

And if it wasn't "his buddy"? Just a random guy on the range? Shooter still gets a penalty for something that he had no control over?

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8.6.2 allows for a procedural for the person coaching and the shooter, as well as possibly making them subject to 10.6

So procedural to the shooter for his non-shooter buddy coaching. If he wants to make a stink about it, or just decides to "coach" all the shooters, then 10.6.2 expelled from the range

And if it wasn't "his buddy"? Just a random guy on the range? Shooter still gets a penalty for something that he had no control over?

8.6.2 Any person providing interference or unauthorized assistance to a competitor during a course of fire (and the competitor receiving such assistance) may, at the discretion of a Range Officer, incur a procedural penalty for that stage and/or be subject to Section 10.6.

At the RO's discretion

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Also from the Glossary;

Loaded Firearm ................A firearm having a live round, empty case or dummy round in the chamber or cylinder, or having a live or dummy round in a magazine inserted in the firearm.

If the competitor had left the COF with an empty, holstered firearm to retrieve mags, there is no rule violation.

i'm not so sure. for example, if you ULSC without showing the RO and without getting the 'range is clear' command, and just leave the stage, i think it very well might be a dq. It could certainly lead to a lengthy discussion.

If i have given make ready, and the competitor hasn't loaded yet but says he needs something from somewhere else, I still have him ULSC before he leaves the stage, because it is not enough to rely on my memory that he hasn't loaded yet.

What rule would you use to DQ the competitor who left the COF with an UNLOADED firearm? As of now, there isn't one.

If he won't ULSC after being given make ready, I don't know that it's unloaded. I would let the RM deal with it.

Of course I would not just stand there silently and let him walk away, I'd be like "hey, you get back here and ULSC!"

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Also from the Glossary;

Loaded Firearm ................A firearm having a live round, empty case or dummy round in the chamber or cylinder, or having a live or dummy round in a magazine inserted in the firearm.

If the competitor had left the COF with an empty, holstered firearm to retrieve mags, there is no rule violation.

i'm not so sure. for example, if you ULSC without showing the RO and without getting the 'range is clear' command, and just leave the stage, i think it very well might be a dq. It could certainly lead to a lengthy discussion.

If i have given make ready, and the competitor hasn't loaded yet but says he needs something from somewhere else, I still have him ULSC before he leaves the stage, because it is not enough to rely on my memory that he hasn't loaded yet.

What rule would you use to DQ the competitor who left the COF with an UNLOADED firearm? As of now, there isn't one.

If he won't ULSC after being given make ready, I don't know that it's unloaded. I would let the RM deal with it.

Of course I would not just stand there silently and let him walk away, I'd be like "hey, you get back here and ULSC!"

Telling the shooter to ULSC is tantamount to using the stop command, is it not? I'd take my reshoot in that case.

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Also from the Glossary;

Loaded Firearm ................A firearm having a live round, empty case or dummy round in the chamber or cylinder, or having a live or dummy round in a magazine inserted in the firearm.

If the competitor had left the COF with an empty, holstered firearm to retrieve mags, there is no rule violation.

i'm not so sure. for example, if you ULSC without showing the RO and without getting the 'range is clear' command, and just leave the stage, i think it very well might be a dq. It could certainly lead to a lengthy discussion.

If i have given make ready, and the competitor hasn't loaded yet but says he needs something from somewhere else, I still have him ULSC before he leaves the stage, because it is not enough to rely on my memory that he hasn't loaded yet.

What rule would you use to DQ the competitor who left the COF with an UNLOADED firearm? As of now, there isn't one.

If he won't ULSC after being given make ready, I don't know that it's unloaded. I would let the RM deal with it.

Of course I would not just stand there silently and let him walk away, I'd be like "hey, you get back here and ULSC!"

Telling the shooter to ULSC is tantamount to using the stop command, is it not? I'd take my reshoot in that case.

wait, wut? sounds like you and I are talking about different things. I was talking about before the start beep.

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Also from the Glossary;

Loaded Firearm ................A firearm having a live round, empty case or dummy round in the chamber or cylinder, or having a live or dummy round in a magazine inserted in the firearm.

If the competitor had left the COF with an empty, holstered firearm to retrieve mags, there is no rule violation.

i'm not so sure. for example, if you ULSC without showing the RO and without getting the 'range is clear' command, and just leave the stage, i think it very well might be a dq. It could certainly lead to a lengthy discussion.

If i have given make ready, and the competitor hasn't loaded yet but says he needs something from somewhere else, I still have him ULSC before he leaves the stage, because it is not enough to rely on my memory that he hasn't loaded yet.

What rule would you use to DQ the competitor who left the COF with an UNLOADED firearm? As of now, there isn't one.

If he won't ULSC after being given make ready, I don't know that it's unloaded. I would let the RM deal with it.

Of course I would not just stand there silently and let him walk away, I'd be like "hey, you get back here and ULSC!"

Telling the shooter to ULSC is tantamount to using the stop command, is it not? I'd take my reshoot in that case.

wait, wut? sounds like you and I are talking about different things. I was talking about before the start beep.

Ah, yes, okay. I agree with stopping the guy before his run if he doesn't seem to have any ammo.

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I have to be honest. I'm not sure what I'd do If I was ROing and noticed a lack of mags on a competitor's belt before giving the MR command. My first thought would be to tell him he forgot his mags. But is that really fair to the other shooters he is competing against? Part of the game is the mental aspect and the equipment aspect. It kind of seems like a jerk move to keep quiet, but saying something opens you up to all kinds of accusations of favoritism and unfair treatment (you told him he didn't have his mags, but you didn't tell me I forgot to chamber a round/turn on my dot/unlock my holster).

If I noticed his lack of mags after the MR command, I would not say anything. If the competitor noticed before the start signal, said he wasn't ready, and asked to ULSC, I would oblige. No harm, no foul. The rules support that.

If a bystander told the competitor about his lack of mags after the MR command but before the start signal, I would probably give the shooter a choice:

1. Go ahead as-is, and when you run out of ammo, I'll score the stage as shot

2. ULSC, go get your mags, and I'll assess 1 procedural for receiving coaching (and a procedural to the person giving the coaching).

If you notice after the start signal, you're pretty hosed. It's probably NOT going to be a stage win. Shoot until you're empty, then score as shot.

Any of the more experienced ROs have a solution that keeps things fair for everyone while being as helpful as the rules allow?

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A shooter cannot leave the stage until the Range Is Clear. That could only happen if the shooter "surrendered" by complying with "If you are finished....". In other words, his stage is done. Time and score.

This should be a rule, but is it?

5.7.5 Under no circumstances is a competitor permitted to leave a course of fire in the possession of a loaded handgun (see Rule 10.5.13).

I couldn't find another rule that covers the competitor leaving the stage.

I can't find it either. Your rule references 10.5.13

10.5.13 Having a loaded firearm other than when specifically ordered to by the Range Officer.

So what if it is unloaded?

Definition of "Loaded"

Loaded Firearm ................A firearm having a live round, empty case or dummy round in the chamber or cylinder, or having a live or dummy round in a magazine inserted in the firearm.

Doesn't say anything about the RO knowing it's unloaded.

I feel like shooting your gun dry and then sprinting to your bag for a mag through a crowd of people outside the COF should be a DQ but I don't see where it is in Chapter 10.

What is the rule?

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I would let a guy with a holstered unloaded gun do what he wanted just for the free entertainment. Gonna zero the stage anyway

Have you checked the gun to ensure that it's clear?
i can tell. There are ways. You can probably think of situations where you can tell.

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Yes. The gun glows with a light bluish aura when it's loaded. No aura when empty.

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I have to be honest. I'm not sure what I'd do If I was ROing and noticed a lack of mags on a competitor's belt before giving the MR command. My first thought would be to tell him he forgot his mags. But is that really fair to the other shooters he is competing against? Part of the game is the mental aspect and the equipment aspect. It kind of seems like a jerk move to keep quiet, but saying something opens you up to all kinds of accusations of favoritism and unfair treatment (you told him he didn't have his mags, but you didn't tell me I forgot to chamber a round/turn on my dot/unlock my holster).

If I noticed his lack of mags after the MR command, I would not say anything. If the competitor noticed before the start signal, said he wasn't ready, and asked to ULSC, I would oblige. No harm, no foul. The rules support that.

If a bystander told the competitor about his lack of mags after the MR command but before the start signal, I would probably give the shooter a choice:

1. Go ahead as-is, and when you run out of ammo, I'll score the stage as shot

2. ULSC, go get your mags, and I'll assess 1 procedural for receiving coaching (and a procedural to the person giving the coaching).

If you notice after the start signal, you're pretty hosed. It's probably NOT going to be a stage win. Shoot until you're empty, then score as shot.

Any of the more experienced ROs have a solution that keeps things fair for everyone while being as helpful as the rules allow?

The fact you are struggling with the validity of telling them shows me you should stick to the rules and say nothing. When I am conflicted I say nothing.

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A shooter cannot leave the stage until the Range Is Clear. That could only happen if the shooter "surrendered" by complying with "If you are finished....". In other words, his stage is done. Time and score.

This should be a rule, but is it?

5.7.5 Under no circumstances is a competitor permitted to leave a course of fire in the possession of a loaded handgun (see Rule 10.5.13).

I couldn't find another rule that covers the competitor leaving the stage.

I can't find it either. Your rule references 10.5.13

10.5.13 Having a loaded firearm other than when specifically ordered to by the Range Officer.

So what if it is unloaded?

Definition of "Loaded"

Loaded Firearm ................A firearm having a live round, empty case or dummy round in the chamber or cylinder, or having a live or dummy round in a magazine inserted in the firearm.

Doesn't say anything about the RO knowing it's unloaded.

I feel like shooting your gun dry and then sprinting to your bag for a mag through a crowd of people outside the COF should be a DQ but I don't see where it is in Chapter 10.

What is the rule?

I found out at the SS Nationals that meeting the defination of "loaded gun" doesn't always mean you possess a "loaded gun".

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Any of the more experienced ROs have a solution that keeps things fair for everyone while being as helpful as the rules allow?

'Stop.' Oops, reshoot.

I feel like shooting your gun dry and then sprinting to your bag for a mag through a crowd of people outside the COF should be a DQ but I don't see where it is in Chapter 10.

What is the rule?

5.2.4? Magazines gotta be on the belt to be used.

Edited by NickBlasta

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Also from the Glossary;

Loaded Firearm ................A firearm having a live round, empty case or dummy round in the chamber or cylinder, or having a live or dummy round in a magazine inserted in the firearm.

If the competitor had left the COF with an empty, holstered firearm to retrieve mags, there is no rule violation.

i'm not so sure. for example, if you ULSC without showing the RO and without getting the 'range is clear' command, and just leave the stage, i think it very well might be a dq. It could certainly lead to a lengthy discussion.

If i have given make ready, and the competitor hasn't loaded yet but says he needs something from somewhere else, I still have him ULSC before he leaves the stage, because it is not enough to rely on my memory that he hasn't loaded yet.

What rule would you use to DQ the competitor who left the COF with an UNLOADED firearm? As of now, there isn't one.

If he won't ULSC after being given make ready, I don't know that it's unloaded. I would let the RM deal with it.

Of course I would not just stand there silently and let him walk away, I'd be like "hey, you get back here and ULSC!"

Telling the shooter to ULSC is tantamount to using the stop command, is it not? I'd take my reshoot in that case.

wait, wut? sounds like you and I are talking about different things. I was talking about before the start beep.

Thanks for clarifying. I thought this thread was discussing what a competitor could do if they discover they have no spare ammo AFTER the start signal.

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8.6.2 allows for a procedural for the person coaching and the shooter, as well as possibly making them subject to 10.6

So procedural to the shooter for his non-shooter buddy coaching. If he wants to make a stink about it, or just decides to "coach" all the shooters, then 10.6.2 expelled from the range

And if it wasn't "his buddy"? Just a random guy on the range? Shooter still gets a penalty for something that he had no control over?

The shooter gets a penalty for something he has control over -- his reaction to the coaching.....

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Also from the Glossary;

Loaded Firearm ................A firearm having a live round, empty case or dummy round in the chamber or cylinder, or having a live or dummy round in a magazine inserted in the firearm.

If the competitor had left the COF with an empty, holstered firearm to retrieve mags, there is no rule violation.

i'm not so sure. for example, if you ULSC without showing the RO and without getting the 'range is clear' command, and just leave the stage, i think it very well might be a dq. It could certainly lead to a lengthy discussion.

If i have given make ready, and the competitor hasn't loaded yet but says he needs something from somewhere else, I still have him ULSC before he leaves the stage, because it is not enough to rely on my memory that he hasn't loaded yet.

What rule would you use to DQ the competitor who left the COF with an UNLOADED firearm? As of now, there isn't one.

If he won't ULSC after being given make ready, I don't know that it's unloaded. I would let the RM deal with it.

Of course I would not just stand there silently and let him walk away, I'd be like "hey, you get back here and ULSC!"

Telling the shooter to ULSC is tantamount to using the stop command, is it not? I'd take my reshoot in that case.

No you won't -- not if you've exited the boundaries of the stage by a bit. And I'll cite 10.5 and a few other rules in the DQ......

I won't stop you when you fault the line; I'll stop you when you've blown well past it and we know it's not a simple error in footwork....

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I would let a guy with a holstered unloaded gun do what he wanted just for the free entertainment. Gonna zero the stage anyway

Have you checked the gun to ensure that it's clear?
i can tell. There are ways. You can probably think of situations where you can tell.

I can think of ways where it's likely that the gun is empty -- but the only way for me to tell for sure is to look in an empty maxwell and an empty chamber.....

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A bit of Devil's advocate here----

How do you define the back of the stage or course of fire? We don't have a marking for that. You can't say it's the fault lines - we're routinely able to go outside or even start outside of them.

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Seems like it would be easier if there was actually a rule like George mentioned, that you couldn't leave the shooting area during the COF. Then how big of a foot fault is a DQ? I've never liked DQ'ing someone for something there wasn't a specific 10 point whatever in the book for. As for 10.5 alone, it does include this- Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to: So I guess you can use it alone, but I thought that was a no, no. Kind of like an AD is specifically defined in 10.4.

For those saying 5.2.4, I didn't think the 5's were really DQ rules.

Gary Stevens, I know you've been around the block, this-

I found out at the SS Nationals that meeting the defination of "loaded gun" doesn't always mean you possess a "loaded gun".

makes it sound like something that would happen right after you get a FTDR somewhere, and I'd love to hear more.

Edited by bofe954

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Seems like it would be easier if there was actually a rule like George mentioned, that you couldn't leave the shooting area during the COF. Then how big of a foot fault is a DQ? I've never liked DQ'ing someone for something there wasn't a specific 10 point whatever in the book for. As for 10.5 alone, it does include this- Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to: So I guess you can use it alone, but I thought that was a no, no. Kind of like an AD is specifically defined in 10.4.

For those saying 5.2.4, I didn't think the 5's were really DQ rules.

Gary Stevens, I know you've been around the block, this-

I found out at the SS Nationals that meeting the defination of "loaded gun" doesn't always mean you possess a "loaded gun".

makes it sound like something that would happen right after you get a FTDR somewhere, and I'd love to hear more.

How big a foot fault? If you're charging toward the targets and the back berm and it's safe for you to do so, I'm not stopping you. Same thing with faulting toward the sides......

When you start running back toward the rest of the squad and where you left your range bag or wagon with a hot gun* though -- you'll get the stop somewhere between the fault line and the crowd. I'm not letting you get prance of the squad, or out of the confines of the side berms without a Stop command. Exactly how far you'd get to go would really be dependent on the stage layout......

Until you show me clear at the end of the stage, I'll consider that gun to be hot, and treat you as if you were in control of a hot gun.....

Would that suck -- to start without mags? Yep undoubtedly. Is it the worst thing that could happen at a match? Nope.....

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