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DocMedic

Question about, starting without magazines.

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We just finished shooting the Mile High Showdown this past weekend, and one of my squad mates who was shooting production stepped up to a stage with just his starting mag. (I'm guessing this was in a pocket.) He started the stage and went to go for the reload, only to find out he didn't bring any of his mags. He self stopped himself and stage was score as is.

So here's my question, in my little 3-gun mind I would had re-holstered a empty and safe pistol, ran to my cart where my magazines where grabbed all the magazines I could and get back on the stage where I left off and load and start shooting... Now is there a rule that prevents me from doing this? I know there is a two minute "malfunction" fix rule, and I also know you are allowed to re-holstered a pistol on the clock as long as it safe.

BTW no one knew he didn't have mags on him, or I pretty sure someone would had said something, at least I know I would had.

Edited by DocMedic

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All mags must strart on the belt unless otherwise stipulated in the WSB.

Also, folks generally should not coach the shooter (with limited exceptions at L1). I am a 3-gunner and would expect exactly the same conduct at an outlaw 3-Gun match.

Edited by StealthyBlagga

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All mags must strart on the belt unless otherwise stipulated in the WSB.

Also, folks generally should not coach the shooter (with limited exceptions at L1). I am a 3-gunner and would expect exactly the same conduct at an outlaw 3-Gun match.

+1.

Hard lesson to learn but...

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Coaching starts after the buzzer, being a good battle buddy starts before that.

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I guess its covered in 5.2.4

" During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazine and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the written stage briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pockets and retrieve and use them, providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of App D, item 12."

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First, no problem with the starting mag from the pocket. That is OK by rule.

A shooter cannot leave the stage until the Range Is Clear. That could only happen if the shooter "surrendered" by complying with "If you are finished....". In other words, his stage is done. Time and score.

Anyone telling the shooter he forgot his mags (after the Make Ready command) would be guilty of coaching and would receive a procedural penalty.

:cheers:

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First, no problem with the starting mag from the pocket. That is OK by rule.

A shooter cannot leave the stage until the Range Is Clear. That could only happen if the shooter "surrendered" by complying with "If you are finished....". In other words, his stage is done. Time and score.

Anyone telling the shooter he forgot his mags (after the Make Ready command) would be guilty of coaching and would receive a procedural penalty.

:cheers:

George, question...What if the person telling the shooter he forgot his mags after the make ready was not shooting the match...was just a bystander/observer?

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8.6.2 Any person providing interference or unauthorized assistance to a competitor during a course of fire (and the competitor receiving such assistance) may, at the discretion of a Range Officer, incur a 34 USPSA Handgun Rules, February 2014 Edition procedural penalty for that stage and/or be subject to Section 10.6

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8.6.2 Any person providing interference or unauthorized assistance to a competitor during a course of fire (and the competitor receiving such assistance) may, at the discretion of a Range Officer, incur a 34 USPSA Handgun Rules, February 2014 Edition procedural penalty for that stage and/or be subject to Section 10.6

True, but that would be pretty harsh for the competitor...since they are already going to zero the stage, unless they have enough in that one mag to complete it...

I see that as penalizing the competitor for something that they have zero control over...

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8.6.2 Any person providing interference or unauthorized assistance to a competitor during a course of fire (and the competitor receiving such assistance) may, at the discretion of a Range Officer, incur a 34 USPSA Handgun Rules, February 2014 Edition procedural penalty for that stage and/or be subject to Section 10.6

True, but that would be pretty harsh for the competitor...since they are already going to zero the stage, unless they have enough in that one mag to complete it...

I see that as penalizing the competitor for something that they have zero control over...

if my wife or non-competing buddy warns me about my mags after make ready, i'm going to say i'm not ready, and go get my mags and (if necessary) eat the procedural rather than zero the stage.

ever since I walked up to the line at a nationals staff shoot with only 2 mags I have tried to keep an eye squadmates so i can advise them (before make ready) if they do it.

However as an RO, I would be disinclined to consider a procedural for a reminder that came before the start signal. Certainly no on blinks an eye at words of encouragement that border on coaching as the shooter is waiting for the beep like 'watch your sights, etc...'.

Edited by motosapiens

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Holy cow moto goes soft all of a sudden. I have started shooters at a level II that didn't have mags on belt. Sad thing is when I mentioned it to the RM later he asked why I didn't tell the shooter he was magless!

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Holy cow moto goes soft all of a sudden. I have started shooters at a level II that didn't have mags on belt. Sad thing is when I mentioned it to the RM later he asked why I didn't tell the shooter he was magless!

what? no way man. Just pointing out that all the time at all matches we see people still talking to the shooter as (and after) the make ready command is issued. It would be hard to single out one in particular and say it was worthy of a procedural. It seems to me the coaching rule was intended to keep people from saying 'hey dumbazz, you forgot those two targets over there!' while someone is still shooting.

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I did exactly the same thing at the Texas Open one year. It was my first LII match, and someone had advised me to not carry my loaded mags on me all day so I wouldn't get so fatigued. Since it was also my first all-day match, it sounded like a good idea. I shot the first stage, loaded my mags, and put them in my bag. All except my make-ready mag, which went into my pocket (behind the hip bone - this was before the rule change).

No one on my squad noticed my belt was empty, as we got right into the stage description and walkthrough as soon as we got to the next stage, and I was called up first right after that. Everyone was still getting their own gear together. I felt my make-ready mag in my pocket so I went up and made ready. It went great right up until shot #10 when I dropped the mag and ran a hand over 6 empty mag pouches. I stopped, ULSC, and learned a valuable lesson. Either remove ALL mags from your person, or carry them all day long.

After that I made it part of my routine to run a hand over my magazines as part of my MR routine.

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First, no problem with the starting mag from the pocket. That is OK by rule.

A shooter cannot leave the stage until the Range Is Clear. That could only happen if the shooter "surrendered" by complying with "If you are finished....". In other words, his stage is done. Time and score.

Anyone telling the shooter he forgot his mags (after the Make Ready command) would be guilty of coaching and would receive a procedural penalty.

:cheers:

George, question...What if the person telling the shooter he forgot his mags after the make ready was not shooting the match...was just a bystander/observer?

10.6.2 Other persons may be expelled from the range for conduct which a Range Officer deems to be unacceptable. Examples of unacceptable conduct include, but are not limited to, failing to comply with the rea- sonable directions of a Match Official, interference with the operation of a course of fire and/or a competitor’s attempt thereof, and any other behavior likely to bring the sport into disrepute

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A shooter cannot leave the stage until the Range Is Clear. That could only happen if the shooter "surrendered" by complying with "If you are finished....". In other words, his stage is done. Time and score.

This should be a rule, but is it?

5.7.5 Under no circumstances is a competitor permitted to leave a course of fire in the possession of a loaded handgun (see Rule 10.5.13).

I couldn't find another rule that covers the competitor leaving the stage.

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A shooter cannot leave the stage until the Range Is Clear. That could only happen if the shooter "surrendered" by complying with "If you are finished....". In other words, his stage is done. Time and score.

This should be a rule, but is it?

5.7.5 Under no circumstances is a competitor permitted to leave a course of fire in the possession of a loaded handgun (see Rule 10.5.13).

I couldn't find another rule that covers the competitor leaving the stage.

I didn't find it either.

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A shooter cannot leave the stage until the Range Is Clear. That could only happen if the shooter "surrendered" by complying with "If you are finished....". In other words, his stage is done. Time and score.

This should be a rule, but is it?

5.7.5 Under no circumstances is a competitor permitted to leave a course of fire in the possession of a loaded handgun (see Rule 10.5.13).

I couldn't find another rule that covers the competitor leaving the stage.

I would assume a handgun to be "loaded" until the ULSC has been completed and RIC command given.

Edited by StealthyBlagga

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A shooter cannot leave the stage until the Range Is Clear. That could only happen if the shooter "surrendered" by complying with "If you are finished....". In other words, his stage is done. Time and score.

This should be a rule, but is it?

5.7.5 Under no circumstances is a competitor permitted to leave a course of fire in the possession of a loaded handgun (see Rule 10.5.13).

I couldn't find another rule that covers the competitor leaving the stage.

I would assume a handgun to be "loaded" until the ULSC has been completed and RIC command given.

And this, from the Glossary:

Course of Fire ..................(Also “course” and “COF”) An expression used inter-changeably with “Stage”.

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Also from the Glossary;

Loaded Firearm ................A firearm having a live round, empty case or dummy round in the chamber or cylinder, or having a live or dummy round in a magazine inserted in the firearm.

If the competitor had left the COF with an empty, holstered firearm to retrieve mags, there is no rule violation.

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Also from the Glossary;

Loaded Firearm ................A firearm having a live round, empty case or dummy round in the chamber or cylinder, or having a live or dummy round in a magazine inserted in the firearm.

If the competitor had left the COF with an empty, holstered firearm to retrieve mags, there is no rule violation.

i'm not so sure. for example, if you ULSC without showing the RO and without getting the 'range is clear' command, and just leave the stage, i think it very well might be a dq. It could certainly lead to a lengthy discussion.

If i have given make ready, and the competitor hasn't loaded yet but says he needs something from somewhere else, I still have him ULSC before he leaves the stage, because it is not enough to rely on my memory that he hasn't loaded yet.

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Also from the Glossary;

Loaded Firearm ................A firearm having a live round, empty case or dummy round in the chamber or cylinder, or having a live or dummy round in a magazine inserted in the firearm.

If the competitor had left the COF with an empty, holstered firearm to retrieve mags, there is no rule violation.

i'm not so sure. for example, if you ULSC without showing the RO and without getting the 'range is clear' command, and just leave the stage, i think it very well might be a dq. It could certainly lead to a lengthy discussion.

If i have given make ready, and the competitor hasn't loaded yet but says he needs something from somewhere else, I still have him ULSC before he leaves the stage, because it is not enough to rely on my memory that he hasn't loaded yet.

What rule would you use to DQ the competitor who left the COF with an UNLOADED firearm? As of now, there isn't one.

Lengthy discussion would be fine AFTER the competitor finished the COF. If the RO stops prior to completion, it is a reshoot.

Does the rule need to include leaving a COF with an unloaded firearm? Maybe. Maybe not.

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I couldn't find a rule that defined the boundaries of the course of fire. It sure would get exciting as the entire peanut gallery scattered so as to not be down range

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I couldn't find a rule that defined the boundaries of the course of fire. It sure would get exciting as the entire peanut gallery scattered so as to not be down range

Not to be downrange of a holstered gun???

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I would let a guy with a holstered unloaded gun do what he wanted just for the free entertainment. Gonna zero the stage anyway

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