USPSA PCC Start Position

[bret]

I think the critical words in 6.2.4.1 are "may allow". It's up to the MD

6.2.4 puts it up to the MD to even allow a second entry, which would be for no score. 6.2.4.1 allows for level 1 MD to allow the second entry to be for recognition.

Having seen it in action, I think trying to shoot 2 divisions in a USPSA match is a bad idea for the reasons posted above, and I try to not squad with people I see signed up that are double registered.

For steel challenge I don't see it as an issue though, since the actual shooting and time between strings takes far longer than the reset of painting a couple of plates. You just need to balance squads based on the number of guns being shot, not the number of shooters.

Guys shooting 2 divisions slow things down, and they add more work for the other shooters and R.O.'s on the squad.

No more so than an extra person on a squad does. If you require the second gun as a second registration/squad slot, it's not much different. The ONLY difference is the two hands missing when taping, etc., so you can't have a squad full of "doubles" or you do run into the problem you're alluding to.

an extra person on a squad is pitching in to help or should, 1 person shooting 2 divisions is not able to pitch in and help as much as 2 people would, actually they don't have time to pitch in as much as 1 person shooting 1 division does, since they are getting 2 guns ready instead of 1.

One person shooting 2 divisions on a squad slow things down, PCC slows things down already, then adding another gun makes it even slower.

[bret]

It's not a multigun match, it's running a rifle match at the same time as a pistol match. No one is shooting more than one type of firearm in their match.

I do, but I register twice. Once for production and once for PCC. It's a second gun for me.

What you meant is "not in the same stage."

Which gun do you shoot 1st?

Only the 1st gun that is shot counts for score,the second one does not, so do you shoot the same gun 1st on each stage?

[mreed911]

Maybe only two hands, but why should everyone else have to carry you?

So you get two runs, and twice on deck, and twice loading mags, plus the time running to the safe table to swap gear. In the mean time everyone else gets to keep resetting stages. If to many guys start shooting twice I bet everyone else will get sick of it pretty quick. I would.

I made a deal with my wife I'll load her mags, and she's has to pull extra duty pasting until I'm done. And some times I feel like a ass because I spend so much time loading/cleaning mags and not helping. I wouldn't run two guns that's for sure.

Nobody is carrying anyone. You (likely) pay a second gun fee, you load mags while someone is making their run (even if it's only a partial load you get multiple times to do this), and with PCC you don't need to run to the safe table to swap gear - carry your bag to the line (or rifle to the line with chamber flag). If you do need to dismount your handgun (I've never seen this required - PCC competitors with second guns run the course with a holstered, never touched, never made ready, empty sidearm) then, again, you've got some time while folks are shooting to do so.

You're making mountains out of molehills. I get that you don't like it, but it's not completely unworkable at all and offers an MD a way to get more involvement, more participation, more funding... I'm not sure the down side.

Hell, last night at a local match we had several folks just shoot the Classifier for PCC (for no "match score," just to submit and see if it hits their profile yet - that's all they wanted to do). The laugh was it was a Tommy Gun with a red dot on it. : )

[JAFO]

Only the 1st gun that is shot counts for score,the second one does not, so do you shoot the same gun 1st on each stage?

Both can count for a Level I match:

6.2.4.1 Level I matches may allow competitors to enter multiple Divisions for match recognition.

[mreed911]

Only the 1st gun that is shot counts for score,the second one does not, so do you shoot the same gun 1st on each stage?

Both can count for a Level I match:

6.2.4.1 Level I matches may allow competitors to enter multiple Divisions for match recognition.

Yep. And if it really DOES get slow, MD's have all sorts of leeway to say "only one gun" or "only one registration" or anything else. No MD is going to compromise a match crowd's happiness and be successful, but PCC is definitely picking up steam... at least here in Texas. Three different matches I was in recently someone at least ASKED about it (and not just me!). Two of the three MD's were "bring it on! that'd be great!"

I missed my chance at an 'accepting' local match last weekend because due to personal circumstances I was late and actually missed the entire first stage. At that point I wasn't going to bring a second gun into contention, especially since I wasn't really shooting for anything except practice and the classifier at that point (they offered to run me on the first stage separately at the end but it would have extended tear-down time, required folks stay later to re-run me, etc, so I politely declined). C'est la vie... I'll do it next time.

Edited June 23, 2016 by mreed911

[Nightops]

an extra person on a squad is pitching in to help or should, 1 person shooting 2 divisions is not able to pitch in and help as much as 2 people would, actually they don't have time to pitch in as much as 1 person shooting 1 division does, since they are getting 2 guns ready instead of 1.

One person shooting 2 divisions on a squad slow things down, PCC slows things down already, then adding another gun makes it even slower.

I'll fully agree that an extra squad member is better than a person shooting 2 guns for those reasons. But I don't follow how a shooter with a PCC as a stand alone division slows things down. Not when Open shooters are shaking in their fancy shoes that they might not get HOA, at the very least a PCC shooter should be much faster than a Revolver shooter on a stage.

[bret]

an extra person on a squad is pitching in to help or should, 1 person shooting 2 divisions is not able to pitch in and help as much as 2 people would, actually they don't have time to pitch in as much as 1 person shooting 1 division does, since they are getting 2 guns ready instead of 1.

One person shooting 2 divisions on a squad slow things down, PCC slows things down already, then adding another gun makes it even slower.

I'll fully agree that an extra squad member is better than a person shooting 2 guns for those reasons. But I don't follow how a shooter with a PCC as a stand alone division slows things down. Not when Open shooters are shaking in their fancy shoes that they might not get HOA, at the very least a PCC shooter should be much faster than a Revolver shooter on a stage.

From what I have seen PCC shooters are slower than open shooters or other shooters, their run time is quicker, but the make ready and time leading up to it is longer as well as the ULSC and bagging of the gun, also reshoots when the timer is not picking up their shots.

[MarkCO]

PCC should take no more time than pistol. If it is then there is a problem with how they are managed.

[jrswanson1]

PCCs should be required to have slings, and should be worn throughout the match. Just like pistols have to be holstered and can be worn throughout the match. PCC shooters should have pasting target duties, steel should be reset by pistol shooters. The bagging nonsense for PCCs would not be an issue if they are slung. Would pistol shooters be okay with bagging pistols between stages? Especially with the Safe Areas rules USPSA uses? Surrender starts wouldn't be an issue either with rifles slung.

[Nightops]

From what I have seen PCC shooters are slower than open shooters or other shooters, their run time is quicker, but the make ready and time leading up to it is longer as well as the ULSC and bagging of the gun, also reshoots when the timer is not picking up their shots.

Ah, bagging, there is your problem. A flagged gun is safe to carry muzzle up or muzzle down. I come to the line muzzle down, with ejection port facing forward and flag clearly visible, usually carrying by the buffer tube. Stand there until MR, then check the dot, lock open and pull the flag (usually the RO grabs it), load up, check safety, and aim at starting cone/low ready.

At ULSC, pull the mag, rack the round out, and show the RO, if they held the flag, they can drop it in, otherwise lock open and flag it myself. RIC, and gun is safe to carry muzzle up or down back to cart/bag/rack/whatever.

None of this takes any longer than any other division.

If your timer isn't picking up the shots, have your lazy RO's get closer. PCC's aren't loud like an open gun, but they aren't suppressor quiet either.

[Racinready300ex]

Maybe only two hands, but why should everyone else have to carry you?

So you get two runs, and twice on deck, and twice loading mags, plus the time running to the safe table to swap gear. In the mean time everyone else gets to keep resetting stages. If to many guys start shooting twice I bet everyone else will get sick of it pretty quick. I would.

I made a deal with my wife I'll load her mags, and she's has to pull extra duty pasting until I'm done. And some times I feel like a ass because I spend so much time loading/cleaning mags and not helping. I wouldn't run two guns that's for sure.

Nobody is carrying anyone. You (likely) pay a second gun fee, you load mags while someone is making their run (even if it's only a partial load you get multiple times to do this), and with PCC you don't need to run to the safe table to swap gear - carry your bag to the line (or rifle to the line with chamber flag). If you do need to dismount your handgun (I've never seen this required - PCC competitors with second guns run the course with a holstered, never touched, never made ready, empty sidearm) then, again, you've got some time while folks are shooting to do so.

You're making mountains out of molehills. I get that you don't like it, but it's not completely unworkable at all and offers an MD a way to get more involvement, more participation, more funding... I'm not sure the down side.

Hell, last night at a local match we had several folks just shoot the Classifier for PCC (for no "match score," just to submit and see if it hits their profile yet - that's all they wanted to do). The laugh was it was a Tommy Gun with a red dot on it. : )

Sure you're being carried at least some. Now I'm sure it works differently is different parts of the country but here is what I see.

In the hole shooter may or may not help reset the stage, on deck shooter does not reset, guy who is up does not reset his own targets, guy who shot last is filling/cleaning mags and doesn't reset. Then they help reset for every other shooter. So each shooter doesn't reset the stage at least 3 times, but with two guns a shooter will not reset the stage 6 times at least. And I'm sure you will find guys who shoot two guns just to get out of resetting the stage. You could drag your feet a little and only reset a couple of time per bay if you want.

You paying more doesn't make it okay. Hopefully the idea doesn't catch on around here, I'd hate to see our matches go from full with 80 shooters to full with 40 shooters shooting twice. That would be less participating, less help, and the same funding. If you want to shoot PCC, shoot PCC. Pick a division and shoot it, we wanted this so bad here it is why do guys want to shoot twice.

[JAFO]

Hopefully the idea doesn't catch on around here, I'd hate to see our matches go from full with 80 shooters to full with 40 shooters shooting twice.

If you're filling your match with single gun shooters, I'd say your MD has a good reason to not allow multiple entries per shooter.

[mreed911]

Hopefully the idea doesn't catch on around here, I'd hate to see our matches go from full with 80 shooters to full with 40 shooters shooting twice.

If you're filling your match with single gun shooters, I'd say your MD has a good reason to not allow multiple entries per shooter.

This. Our matches are rarely "full to capacity."

[teros135]

You PCC fans with the sarcasm, insults to other divisioms, and insistence that you (and only you) should get to shoot two guns while in one squad aren't making yourselves any friends. Just a heads-up.

[rhett45acp]

May have been asked before; If you are allowed to shoot multiple guns in the same match, would that not be a competitive advantage? I would run my suck class first to get an under the timer look, then my "real" banger for the second. I think this could be asked without bringing PCC into question.

Yes, I think the level of animosity would increase when three folks show up and occupy 6 slots if you will. And, how much pasting and helping will someone be doing while managing two guns?

I am slowly now OK with PCC running as just another pistol in a match. For now, Low ready and we will address any gimmick starts for PCC in the WSB.

Now just too convince the BoD the M1 Carbine is a Pistol Caliber Carbine (has been chamber in at least two pistols) - That way I don't have to buy no junk. :-)

[mreed911]

May have been asked before; If you are allowed to shoot multiple guns in the same match, would that not be a competitive advantage? I would run my suck class first to get an under the timer look, then my "real" banger for the second. I think this could be asked without bringing PCC into question.

Yes, I think the level of animosity would increase when three folks show up and occupy 6 slots if you will. And, how much pasting and helping will someone be doing while managing two guns?

I am slowly now OK with PCC running as just another pistol in a match. For now, Low ready and we will address any gimmick starts for PCC in the WSB.

Now just too convince the BoD the M1 Carbine is a Pistol Caliber Carbine (has been chamber in at least two pistols) - That way I don't have to buy no junk. :-)

doesnt Chiappa make a 9mm M1?

[Nightops]

You PCC fans with the sarcasm, insults to other divisioms, and insistence that you (and only you) should get to shoot two guns while in one squad aren't making yourselves any friends. Just a heads-up.

Hey, I throw plenty of sarcasm and insults, but think shooting any 2 divisions at a level 1 is a bad idea. It messes up the match flow and means more pasting/resetting for the squad while someone fills mags.

But the option to allow it, and if it is for score or not rests with the MD. I know I won't squad with anyone shooting 2 divisions.

[bret]

May have been asked before; If you are allowed to shoot multiple guns in the same match, would that not be a competitive advantage? I would run my suck class first to get an under the timer look, then my "real" banger for the second. I think this could be asked without bringing PCC into question.

Yes, I think the level of animosity would increase when three folks show up and occupy 6 slots if you will. And, how much pasting and helping will someone be doing while managing two guns?

I am slowly now OK with PCC running as just another pistol in a match. For now, Low ready and we will address any gimmick starts for PCC in the WSB.

Now just too convince the BoD the M1 Carbine is a Pistol Caliber Carbine (has been chamber in at least two pistols) - That way I don't have to buy no junk. :-)

You can't shoot the same match for score 2 times, so if you are shooting PCC and Limited, the one you shoot first is for score.

Same as when a guy shoots a match Limited and then Open, only the 1st one is for score.

[ChuckS]

May have been asked before; If you are allowed to shoot multiple guns in the same match, would that not be a competitive advantage? I would run my suck class first to get an under the timer look, then my "real" banger for the second. I think this could be asked without bringing PCC into question.

Yes, I think the level of animosity would increase when three folks show up and occupy 6 slots if you will. And, how much pasting and helping will someone be doing while managing two guns?

I am slowly now OK with PCC running as just another pistol in a match. For now, Low ready and we will address any gimmick starts for PCC in the WSB.

Now just too convince the BoD the M1 Carbine is a Pistol Caliber Carbine (has been chamber in at least two pistols) - That way I don't have to buy no junk. :-)

You can't shoot the same match for score 2 times, so if you are shooting PCC and Limited, the one you shoot first is for score.

Same as when a guy shoots a match Limited and then Open, only the 1st one is for score.

6.2.4.1 Level I matches may allow competitors to enter multiple Divisions for match recognition.

[Mark R]

Man, did this thread drift or what? Has anyone seen any start position info from DNROI yet?

[mike_pinto]

Yes! Haha. They will be approved and released VERY soon.

[uod]

Here is the addendum to the rules that addresses start position, ready condition, etc : https://uspsa.org/document_library/rules/2016/PCC_Rules_Addendum.pdf

[uod]

Appendix D8 has also been modified as of yesterday : https://uspsa.org/document_library/rules/2016/PCC%20Appendix%20D8.pdf

[rhett45acp]

Here is the addendum to the rules that addresses start position, ready condition, etc : https://uspsa.org/document_library/rules/2016/PCC_Rules_Addendum.pdf

In essence, if I read this correctly, SHO = ~freestyle, less requiring SH to articulate trigger (don't know why you would do different?).

Pretty simple, nothing to see here. ???

[Nightops]

Freestyle is still freestyle, SHO is specifically from strong side and working the trigger with the strong hand. Now granted most people will choose to shoot most of their freestyle shots from the SHO style, unless leans/barricades make switching advantageous.

For WHO, you could in theory save a bit of time transitioning by just shifting to your other shoulder and not swapping hands to work the trigger. It is awkward, but could be less so than a severe weak side lean. Under Freestyle that would be possible, but for WHO you must switch hands for the trigger also.