USPSA PCC Start Position

[j33716]

I didn't ask two questions but anyway.

The problem I am seeing is when matches try to mix PCC into a pistol match. By definition (and any law in the country that I know of) it is a rifle.

When you mix in the rifle into a pistol match it becomes a Multi-Gun match and therefore falls under a different rule book.

I still think it's a great division but falls under Multi-Gun matches (JMO)

[Trent1k1]

12 Start Position As defined in WSB;

My point, which i have stated repeatedly, is that RIGHT NOW, there are NO RULES for PCC.

http://uspsa.org/document_library/2016/PCC%20Appendix%20for%20USPSA_D8_DNROI_posting3116.pdf

Again, this ruling is not the final RULES. It doesn't address strong hand/weak hand.

Let's see what the final Approved rules are and have a discussion at that point. Until then, everyone can continue to run Outlaw.

[mreed911]

"As defined in WSB; muzzle points downrange, safety on and fingers outside trigger guard in all start positions."

[Mark R]

Thanks folks...a lot of good discussion here. Guess it will be a good idea to wait until DNROI comes up with a solution for start position, classifier and overall procedures regarding PCC.

[Yardbird]

It's not a multigun match, it's running a rifle match at the same time as a pistol match. No one is shooting more than one type of firearm in their match.

Edited June 15, 2016 by Yardbird

[MarkCO]

"As defined in WSB; muzzle points downrange, safety on and fingers outside trigger guard in all start positions."

Yeah, that is simple and works, unless a person does not like PCC, then they use it as a point of argument. Those who like it and know how to handle long guns have figured it out years ago, have been doing it outlaw for years at numerous clubs. If you are an RO who does not know how to run or handle a shooter with PCC, you can ask and learn (it is pretty easy) or just decline to run them. I am sure no-one who shoots PCC will be upset with an RO who is uncomfortable running a PCC shooter.

[mreed911]

It's not a multigun match, it's running a rifle match at the same time as a pistol match. No one is shooting more than one type of firearm in their match.

I do, but I register twice. Once for production and once for PCC. It's a second gun for me.

What you meant is "not in the same stage."

[Yardbird]

Nope, I meant match.

Edited June 15, 2016 by Yardbird

[mreed911]

Nope, I meant match.

Okay, then you're wrong. I shoot both types in the same match.

[Nik Habicht]

Nope, I meant match.

Okay, then you're wrong. I shoot both types in the same match.

You think you do, but according to the rules you don't.......

Semantics, I know.......

You also shoot a different match (actually two different matches) than Open, Limited, Revolver, etc. shooters.....

[Sarge]

Nope, I meant match.

Okay, then you're wrong. I shoot both types in the same match.

What he is getting at is the same thing I was corrected on months ago. It's not a multi gun match because you are only running a single gun. If you pay to run two guns you are shooting two matches as far as scoring goes.

[Sarge]

I didn't ask two questions but anyway.

The problem I am seeing is when matches try to mix PCC into a pistol match. By definition (and any law in the country that I know of) it is a rifle.

When you mix in the rifle into a pistol match it becomes a Multi-Gun match and therefore falls under a different rule book.

I still think it's a great division but falls under Multi-Gun matches (JMO)

PCC is coming whether we like it or not. I loved the thought of running a carbine as a totally separate match. I don't actually WANT PCC to be shot in pistol matches but that's not for me to say now. It's actually a very minor adjustment that most of us should easily adapt to

[MarkCO]

I didn't ask two questions but anyway.

The problem I am seeing is when matches try to mix PCC into a pistol match. By definition (and any law in the country that I know of) it is a rifle.

When you mix in the rifle into a pistol match it becomes a Multi-Gun match and therefore falls under a different rule book.

I still think it's a great division but falls under Multi-Gun matches (JMO)

PCC is coming whether we like it or not. I loved the thought of running a carbine as a totally separate match. I don't actually WANT PCC to be shot in pistol matches but that's not for me to say now. It's actually a very minor adjustment that most of us should easily adapt to

And, I will add, I think many people will switch to PCC at the expense of losing the pistol skills they have worked hard to achieve. When I take off several months from shooting, the long gun stuff comes back in about 10 minutes. It takes hours (matches and practice) to get the pistol skills back. I like PCC for several reasons, but I have promised myself to not let my pistol skills suffer since PCC is so much easier.

[mreed911]

Yeah, it's not like you can shoot both...

[jrswanson1]

Local matches here fill up fast, rarely do people get to shoot two different classes in the same match. Although this makes it easier to do.

[Nightops]

Yeah, it's not like you can shoot both...

Shooting some matches with a pistol, and other matches using a PCC is a fine idea. Lots of people will occasionally shoot a different division than normal just for a change of pace and a different method of breaking down stages.

Trying to shoot 2 divisions in the same match is a terrible idea, and clubs shouldn't allow that. You need to keep your squads roughly the same size, so they progress from bay to bay at about the same pace. Each double gun shooter adds and extra run,scoring, and reset to the stage, but they also take away a person doing the reset because they have to reload 2x the number of mags, and swap gear around for their next run. This has nothing to do with PCC specifically, it applies to anyone trying to run any two divisions in the same match.

[ChuckS]

Yeah, it's not like you can shoot both...

Shooting some matches with a pistol, and other matches using a PCC is a fine idea. Lots of people will occasionally shoot a different division than normal just for a change of pace and a different method of breaking down stages.

Trying to shoot 2 divisions in the same match is a terrible idea, and clubs shouldn't allow that. You need to keep your squads roughly the same size, so they progress from bay to bay at about the same pace. Each double gun shooter adds and extra run,scoring, and reset to the stage, but they also take away a person doing the reset because they have to reload 2x the number of mags, and swap gear around for their next run. This has nothing to do with PCC specifically, it applies to anyone trying to run any two divisions in the same match.

I don't disagree but there is rule 6.2.4.1

[Bkreutz]

Yeah, it's not like you can shoot both...

Shooting some matches with a pistol, and other matches using a PCC is a fine idea. Lots of people will occasionally shoot a different division than normal just for a change of pace and a different method of breaking down stages.

Trying to shoot 2 divisions in the same match is a terrible idea, and clubs shouldn't allow that. You need to keep your squads roughly the same size, so they progress from bay to bay at about the same pace. Each double gun shooter adds and extra run,scoring, and reset to the stage, but they also take away a person doing the reset because they have to reload 2x the number of mags, and swap gear around for their next run. This has nothing to do with PCC specifically, it applies to anyone trying to run any two divisions in the same match.

I don't disagree but there is rule 6.2.4.1

I think the critical words in 6.2.4.1 are "may allow". It's up to the MD

[mreed911]

Yeah, it's not like you can shoot both...

Shooting some matches with a pistol, and other matches using a PCC is a fine idea. Lots of people will occasionally shoot a different division than normal just for a change of pace and a different method of breaking down stages.

Trying to shoot 2 divisions in the same match is a terrible idea, and clubs shouldn't allow that. You need to keep your squads roughly the same size, so they progress from bay to bay at about the same pace. Each double gun shooter adds and extra run,scoring, and reset to the stage, but they also take away a person doing the reset because they have to reload 2x the number of mags, and swap gear around for their next run. This has nothing to do with PCC specifically, it applies to anyone trying to run any two divisions in the same match.

I don't disagree but there is rule 6.2.4.1

I think the critical words in 6.2.4.1 are "may allow". It's up to the MD

Yep. Down here some do, some don't, even pre-PCC (think Limited and Limited 10). I take advantage when I can but don't fret when I can't. Edited June 16, 2016 by mreed911

[JAFO]

We rarely see multiple signups in USPSA, but we see it a lot in Steel Challenge. Especially when someone wants to run rimfire pistol or rifle and centerfire pistol. We make people sign the squad sheet twice if they are shooting two guns to get a better idea of true squad size, but you're right that it cuts into reset help. Of course, resetting is a lot simpler in SC.

To date we haven't offered PCC, and I'm glad the start position rules will be made more clear before we do.

Edited June 16, 2016 by JAFO

[Nightops]

I think the critical words in 6.2.4.1 are "may allow". It's up to the MD

6.2.4 puts it up to the MD to even allow a second entry, which would be for no score. 6.2.4.1 allows for level 1 MD to allow the second entry to be for recognition.

Having seen it in action, I think trying to shoot 2 divisions in a USPSA match is a bad idea for the reasons posted above, and I try to not squad with people I see signed up that are double registered.

For steel challenge I don't see it as an issue though, since the actual shooting and time between strings takes far longer than the reset of painting a couple of plates. You just need to balance squads based on the number of guns being shot, not the number of shooters.

[bret]

hit the ground with a spot of spray paint and in the wsb include for pcc "muzzle pointed at (color) paint dot". that seems to reduce some of the vagaries. especially if you tell a lot of people port arms they just go deer in head lights. some people seem to think low ready means pointed at the D zone of the first target you're shooting.

and for uprange starts you lamr facing down range then point the muzzle at the ground in front of your feet and turn around uprange. think safety circle concept. include "safety on" in the pcc portion of your wsb.

hands above shoulders? run a sling and let the carbine hang. both hands on X's? same thing.

LAMR?

Your idea of an Uprange start is a trip to dairy queen waiting to happen.

[bret]

I think the critical words in 6.2.4.1 are "may allow". It's up to the MD

6.2.4 puts it up to the MD to even allow a second entry, which would be for no score. 6.2.4.1 allows for level 1 MD to allow the second entry to be for recognition.

Having seen it in action, I think trying to shoot 2 divisions in a USPSA match is a bad idea for the reasons posted above, and I try to not squad with people I see signed up that are double registered.

For steel challenge I don't see it as an issue though, since the actual shooting and time between strings takes far longer than the reset of painting a couple of plates. You just need to balance squads based on the number of guns being shot, not the number of shooters.

Guys shooting 2 divisions slow things down, and they add more work for the other shooters and R.O.'s on the squad.

[mreed911]

I think the critical words in 6.2.4.1 are "may allow". It's up to the MD

6.2.4 puts it up to the MD to even allow a second entry, which would be for no score. 6.2.4.1 allows for level 1 MD to allow the second entry to be for recognition.

Having seen it in action, I think trying to shoot 2 divisions in a USPSA match is a bad idea for the reasons posted above, and I try to not squad with people I see signed up that are double registered.

For steel challenge I don't see it as an issue though, since the actual shooting and time between strings takes far longer than the reset of painting a couple of plates. You just need to balance squads based on the number of guns being shot, not the number of shooters.

Guys shooting 2 divisions slow things down, and they add more work for the other shooters and R.O.'s on the squad.

No more so than an extra person on a squad does. If you require the second gun as a second registration/squad slot, it's not much different. The ONLY difference is the two hands missing when taping, etc., so you can't have a squad full of "doubles" or you do run into the problem you're alluding to.

[Racinready300ex]

Maybe only two hands, but why should everyone else have to carry you?

So you get two runs, and twice on deck, and twice loading mags, plus the time running to the safe table to swap gear. In the mean time everyone else gets to keep resetting stages. If to many guys start shooting twice I bet everyone else will get sick of it pretty quick. I would.

I made a deal with my wife I'll load her mags, and she's has to pull extra duty pasting until I'm done. And some times I feel like a ass because I spend so much time loading/cleaning mags and not helping. I wouldn't run two guns that's for sure.