USPSA PCC Start Position

[Mark R]

I've read Appendix D8 concerning PPC in USPSA rules and it vaguely states that the start position for PCC is WSB defined.

Running 3-gun matches, we usually start port arms or low ready with muzzle pointing downrange.

How do you match directors that are running PCC now start your PCC shooters? Default low ready? Change it up? Table starts? Is there a preferred or best way to start them? I plan to allow PCC next USPSA match at my home club in July.

Fire away!

[DocMedic]

We just ran a match this weekend running PCC, anytime it was standard start (pistol loaded in holster arm's relaxed) I started at the low ready safety on. I tried my best to comply with stage WSB start position as best I could, IE Hands on X's or firearm on table unloaded, for Hands on X's I put my support hand on the X and kept my control hand on the PCC gun at the low ready. Unloaded table start, I had no issues. I didn't squad with the 3 other PCC shooters so I don't know if they did the same but I feel that there is only a few starting position that a PCC cannot obtain safely, ie uprange starts. I remember a couple months ago we had a stage where you started by choking a rubber chicken with both hands and at the start you had to dump the chicken in a bucket. I would probably start with one hand choking the chicken and my other holding the rifle in a safe direction at the low ready, again this can be changed in WSB for PCC start if you wish, and if you need help I'm sure you have a couple of shooters who are 3 gunners that can help.

[Bkreutz]

I hope the WSB defined "choking the chicken" in detail, otherwise you could end up with some unforeseen starting positions.

[rowdyb]

hit the ground with a spot of spray paint and in the wsb include for pcc "muzzle pointed at (color) paint dot". that seems to reduce some of the vagaries. especially if you tell a lot of people port arms they just go deer in head lights. some people seem to think low ready means pointed at the D zone of the first target you're shooting.

and for uprange starts you lamr facing down range then point the muzzle at the ground in front of your feet and turn around uprange. think safety circle concept. include "safety on" in the pcc portion of your wsb.

hands above shoulders? run a sling and let the carbine hang. both hands on X's? same thing.

[Nightops]

I hope the WSB defined "choking the chicken" in detail, otherwise you could end up with some unforeseen starting positions.

Would definitely be an awkward "make ready"

[NickBlasta]

I just read 'as in WSB; muzzle downrange, safety on' to mean you comply as best you can. If it's both hands on head, you put your weak hand on your head, or what have you.

I don't think you should write out a separate PCC start position, just have a set of guidelines on what start position to use as a PCC shooter in the division rules when they're more written than they are now.

[Mhall]

and for uprange starts you lamr facing down range then point the muzzle at the ground in front of your feet and turn around uprange. think safety circle concept.

Is this approved by NROI? I can't believe (based on the current safety rules) anyone would let this happen. You go 181 degrees with a pistol and you get a free ticket home.

I get the 3' circle thing, but if you draw before turning you also get sent home. I don't see any difference here.

Gun in the holster and rifle pointing at the ground are two different things. I've only been shooting for a year and a half and I've seen some things that make me glad we have the safety rules we do have. As soon as you put a loaded gun in someone's hands and then time them, crazy stuff happens. I don't think a muzzle pointing uprange even the slightest bit is ok. If there is an AD, now there are bullets going UPRANGE. Uprange is where I'm standing, possibly holding the timer, tablet, loading, talking, trying to have a good time with my shooting buddies. That is no place for bullets to be heading.

If I missed the sarcasm, I apologize for the rant.

If not, stepping down from soapbox.

Edited June 14, 2016 by Mhall

[mike_pinto]

Keep an eye out in the very near future for clarification as well as PCC start positions for classifiers. It will all be cleared up.. DO NOT turn around with your carbine for an uprange start position. MD's need to start folks downrange until the clarification comes out.

[AWLAZS]

hit the ground with a spot of spray paint and in the wsb include for pcc "muzzle pointed at (color) paint dot". that seems to reduce some of the vagaries. especially if you tell a lot of people port arms they just go deer in head lights. some people seem to think low ready means pointed at the D zone of the first target you're shooting.

and for uprange starts you lamr facing down range then point the muzzle at the ground in front of your feet and turn around uprange. think safety circle concept. include "safety on" in the pcc portion of your wsb.

hands above shoulders? run a sling and let the carbine hang. both hands on X's? same thing.

I was dqed for using safety circle with a hand gun

Edited June 15, 2016 by AWLAZS

[blaster113]

I remember a couple months ago we had a stage where you started by choking a rubber chicken with both hands and at the start you had to dump the chicken in a bucket. I would probably start with one hand choking the chicken and my other holding the rifle in a safe direction at the low ready, again this can be changed in WSB for PCC start if you wish, and if you need help I'm sure you have a couple of shooters who are 3 gunners that can help.

One of my first matches as a MD I had a stage where you were choking a chicken then had to throw it in a pot. My stage brief got some comments haha.

This Sunday's match will be our club's first one where PCC is recognized. As the MD putting together this next match I've have to address different start positions for the PCC guys. Hopefully PCC catches on cause it looks like a blast. Hawaii's 10 rnd pistol mag law complicates things for those using carbines that take pistol mags.

[Trent1k1]

I think that most of the obvious problems have been discussed here with start positions.

Shooters don't get to make up what they think the start position will be with only 1 hand on a wall for example. Otherwise, as a pistol shooter I would argue for the same relaxed standard.

Weapon on barrel or table seems to be the only start position that will work for all Divisions.

I'm still not quite sure how they are going to holster those bad boys at the end of the stage.

[MarkCO]

We did the same as DocMedic. We put the PCC shooters on the same squad. One stage had hands on keyboard. We held our PCCs in our hands and then put our hands on the keyboard. One stage required hands on butt cheeks. We did the default low ready. In all cases, safety on, muzzle downrange, finger out of trigger guard.

To keep from having to write it in, if the wsb can not be complied with, the default makes the most sense to me.

[Nightops]

I'm still not quite sure how they are going to holster those bad boys at the end of the stage.

Unload, show clear, insert chamber flag. From there it is a cold gun and can be carried muzzle up or down back to be secured in a cart or bag, just like every other gun sport does with a long gun.

[MarkCO]

I'm still not quite sure how they are going to holster those bad boys at the end of the stage.

Unload, show clear, insert chamber flag. From there it is a cold gun and can be carried muzzle up or down back to be secured in a cart or bag, just like every other gun sport does with a long gun.

We just had one of the other PCC shooters bring up the bag. Took all of 10 seconds.

[jrswanson1]

I'm thinking that all PCC shooters need a sling. I have had to use a sling in 3-gun for some stages, so I bring one with me to every match. A quick detach single point sling is handy for this application.

[Trent1k1]

It will be good to have some rules from HQ, so we aren't making it up as we go along.

Many good ideas here, but even the classifiers that are being shot now are all being done differently. I was at a match where there was a freestyle/strong hand, freestyle/weak hand. I have no idea how it was shot. Was the strong/weak hand done with only one hand on the rifle? Was it done by moving the rifle to the weak hand shoulder and still used both hands? I have no idea.

[SCTaylor]

Trent did you even read what Pinto said? I have it on good authority he knows what is going on, even being an Okie he is the Area 4 director.

HQ is working on this.

Keep an eye out in the very near future for clarification as well as PCC start positions for classifiers.

Edited June 15, 2016 by SCTaylor

[mike_pinto]

Trent, I can tell you that the latest ruleset will clarify how it MUST be shot. There will be no classifiers that will require only one hand to be in contact with the gun. Weakhand will be weak shoulder mounted with weakhand trigger finger actuating the trigger. Strong hand will be what most of us consider standard shooting, strong shoulder fired, strong hand trigger finger pulling the bang switch. Both hands on carbine in both examples. Since technically it is still to this very day not even a provisional division (July 1st was the announced date), it really didn't matter how you shot the classifiers, they weren't going to count. I think within the next week or so, all (most) of the ambiguity of PCC will be addressed. DNROI is working to complete the last of the classifier modifications to include PCC starting positions. As soon as that is complete, they will be available for all of us..

Thanks!

Mike

[Trent1k1]

Did you even read what I said? "It will be good to have some rules from HQ, until then we are making them up as we go along."

It's just a statement.

Mike, as you stated, its not even a provisional division yet.

[Sarge]

[quote name="Trent1k1" post="2622098" timestamp="1465991686

Shooters don't get to make up what they think the start position will be with only 1 hand on a wall for example. Otherwise, as a pistol shooter I would argue for the same relaxed standard.

Pistol shooters won't be shooting against PCC so that argument is moot. That sounds like arguing to be able to use 29 round big sticks in production

[Trent1k1]

My point, which i have stated repeatedly, is that RIGHT NOW, there are NO RULES for PCC.

In the case below, based on the CURRENT rule-set, the shooter and Range officer violated 3 rules at a minimum.

3.2.1 A written stage briefing approved by the Range Master must be posted at each course of fire prior to commencement of the match. This briefing will take precedence over any course of fire information published or otherwise communicated to competitors in advance of the match, and it must provide the following minimum information:
— Scoring Method:
— Targets (type & number):
— Minimum number of rounds:
— The handgun ready condition:
— Start position:
— Time starts: audible or visual signal:
— Procedure:

(cannot start a shooter not in the proper start position)

8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms and hands hanging naturally by the sides

(obviously didnt comply)

8.2.3 A course of fire must never require or allow a competitor to touch or hold a handgun, loading device or ammunition after the “Standby” command and before the “Start Signal”

(obviously didnt comply)

We just ran a match this weekend running PCC, anytime it was standard start (pistol loaded in holster arm's relaxed) I started at the low ready safety on. I tried my best to comply with stage WSB start position as best I could, IE Hands on X's or firearm on table unloaded, for Hands on X's I put my support hand on the X and kept my control hand on the PCC gun at the low ready. Unloaded table start, I had no issues. I didn't squad with the 3 other PCC shooters so I don't know if they did the same but I feel that there is only a few starting position that a PCC cannot obtain safely, ie uprange starts. I remember a couple months ago we had a stage where you started by choking a rubber chicken with both hands and at the start you had to dump the chicken in a bucket. I would probably start with one hand choking the chicken and my other holding the rifle in a safe direction at the low ready, again this can be changed in WSB for PCC start if you wish, and if you need help I'm sure you have a couple of shooters who are 3 gunners that can help.

In another example, the shooter kept the muzzle low within 3 feet and violated the 180 degree with a loaded firearm.

As, i mentioned in previous points, having rules from HQ will (should) address all these items so everyone is on the same page and matches will have the same safe standard that USPSA is known for.

[j33716]

Personally, I see PCC as a rifle, not a pistol. After all it's a pistol caliber carbine rifle.

If they put them in with Multi-Gun matches the rules are pretty much the same except equipment.

Mixing PCC with a pistol match is the same as mixing rifles in the pistol match. It's no longer a pistol match but rather a multi-gun match

Since both pistols and rifles are included, someone is going to ask which rules apply.

It's a great division but doesn't fit in a pistol match.

[mreed911]

My point, which i have stated repeatedly, is that RIGHT NOW, there are NO RULES for PCC.

http://uspsa.org/document_library/2016/PCC%20Appendix%20for%20USPSA_D8_DNROI_posting3116.pdf

[j33716]

^^^ Following the Appendix for PCC equipment rules.... An AR Pistol is not allowed and therefore only rifles are allowed.

Does this not make it a Multi-Gun match by default?

[mreed911]

^^^ Following the Appendix for PCC equipment rules.... An AR Pistol is not allowed and therefore only rifles are allowed.

Does this not make it a Multi-Gun match by default?

To your first question: an AR pistol is not a carbine.

To your second question: so what?