Procedurals per shot or per illegal reload

[teros135]

Well, surprise, somebody's decided to turn the thread sideways and lecture us.

Let's go back to the beginning and come to a simple conclusion. The OP asked what the penalty should be when the WSB says that "all magazines used during the stage are to be placed on top of barrels, tables, etc.", a shooter has a mag on his belt at the start, and he uses it during the COF. A simple request.

I went back and read the OP, and it does say "all magazines used", not "all magazines to be used" (I misread), and so I'll adjust my conclusion. If the shooter used an illegal mag, he should expect to be penalized one per shot from that mag (under 10.2.2) due to the advantage gained by using a mag on the body. No penalty for not following the WSB, since the per-shot penalty covers the offense.

No need to argue about whether there's an advantage; the range staff and RM should decide that in advance, but in general it would be an advantage to not have to spend the time placing mags on the belt (I'm not trying to start an argument here - the staff should decide this in advance and stick to it for everyone).

And no, no body searches for extra mags. That's just stupid.

[bret]

10.2.2 is per shot fired if significant advantage.

IMO it is significant advantage to load from the belt rather than a barrel.

It would be up to the RM to decide, whether or not it was significant advantage if it was appealed.

[teros135]

Yes, and that's what everybody else has been saying. Deja vu...

[Doug H.]

No actual WSB has been provided for the stage so we have nothing to add to. Starting a shooter in the correct position is not coaching and is in fact the ROs duty. The CRO running the stage should clear up all these questions (and perhaps have WSB reworded) before the first shot is fired.

Doug

Edited June 5, 2016 by Doug H.

[George Jones]

In order to clean up some of the stated opinions....

- Mandatory reload is not relevant to this stage.

- The RO should not involve himself in the mags on the belt per the WSB as described in this case.

- Per Rule 8.3.1, the RO's only concern is the shooter's Start Position. The mags are not part of that concern. For example, for a loaded start, if the shooter forgets to load the gun, the RO should stay quiet. Saying anything would be coaching.

- As to the penalty, as stated earlier, this is something which should be decided in advance by the RM/CRO, no differently than significant advantage when faulting. It would all depend on the layout of the stage.

- Lastly, it's never about the intent of the WSB, it's only about what it says.

[coldchar]

George said it all. This is treading in the area we settled on a few years ago about a dual penalty for the same violation i.e. double jeopardy.

[Peplow530]

I would give him 1 procedural. I don't think there's anything in the book that says to give someone an additional PE for each additional shot taken unless maybe it's a limited standards stage.

"5.1.2 Only one (1) PE is assessed for each type of infraction in a string of fire. If the shooter commits more than one type of infraction, such as using the wrong specified hand and firing an incorrect number of shots, a separate PE is assessed for each type of infraction. There are several exceptions to the one PE per infraction rule."

[Peplow530]

There's this but it is only under "limited scoring"

4.2.2 Any extra shots in a string of fire will incur one Procedural Error penalty per string and for each extra

shot one (1) of the best scoring hits will be taped over before the score is calculated. When the shooter does not fire enough rounds at a target, the unfired rounds are counted as misses, a Procedural Error penalty is assessed for not following the CoF description, and other penalties may apply.

[teros135]

I would give him 1 procedural. I don't think there's anything in the book that says to give someone an additional PE for each additional shot taken unless maybe it's a limited standards stage.

"5.1.2 Only one (1) PE is assessed for each type of infraction in a string of fire. If the shooter commits more than one type of infraction, such as using the wrong specified hand and firing an incorrect number of shots, a separate PE is assessed for each type of infraction. There are several exceptions to the one PE per infraction rule."

There's this but it is only under "limited scoring"

4.2.2 Any extra shots in a string of fire will incur one Procedural Error penalty per string and for each extra

shot one (1) of the best scoring hits will be taped over before the score is calculated. When the shooter does not fire enough rounds at a target, the unfired rounds are counted as misses, a Procedural Error penalty is assessed for not following the CoF description, and other penalties may apply.

To be clear, these appear to be from another rulebook (not USPSA, which is what folks have been citing above). Doesn't appear to be IPSC or IDPA, nor USPSA Rifle/shotgun/multigun rules, from the numbering.

Edit: Found it. It appears to be from the 2015 IDPA rules, so it's not applicable here.

Edited June 27, 2016 by teros135

[Ed Deegan]

1 Procedural for reloading from the belt + 1 per shot fired from that same magazine until another mag change was completed using the correct magazine staging location.

One per shot is the procedural, no need to add another Procedural for failure to follow the stage . 10 shots from the incorrect mag, 10 procedurals. The RO should not have started the shooter until he complied with the stage description and removed the mag from his belt.

Doug

Hey Doug,

I don't see how the shooter didn't comply with the stage description and the RO "not starting him". He can have anything on his person including mags at any time. As long as they are properly placed (hello bump to open) and not used (complying with WSB), who cares. It's his risk.

As to the penalties, a well written WSB would remove this problem.

Having said the above, my opinion is 1 per shot, but because the WSB doesnt say, and the rulebook is ambiguous... hello RM/MD arb committee.

[teros135]

Thinking about this some more, if competitor has a mag on his person and uses it he's violated the WSB (all ammo used in the stage must come from the barrels/tables), and each shot fired from that mag violates the WSB. Therefore, 1 penalty per shot from the illegal mag. It's a heavy penalty, but the rules are the rules. (And will provide a good lesson for the entire squad...)

That's why it's a good idea to take all the mags off your belt in stages of this type. How many times have we seen the hand go to the belt for a reload, automatically?

And yes, a clearer WSB would be helpful. ("All ammo used must be staged on barrels/tables, and all reloads must come from the barrels/tables. No ammo may be carried on the person." )

Hmmm. In this scenario, would the RO decline to start the shooter if he had illegal equipment (mags on belt)?

[bret]

Thinking about this some more, if competitor has a mag on his person and uses it he's violated the WSB (all ammo used in the stage must come from the barrels/tables), and each shot fired from that mag violates the WSB. Therefore, 1 penalty per shot from the illegal mag. It's a heavy penalty, but the rules are the rules. (And will provide a good lesson for the entire squad...)

That's why it's a good idea to take all the mags off your belt in stages of this type. How many times have we seen the hand go to the belt for a reload, automatically?

And yes, a clearer WSB would be helpful. ("All ammo used must be staged on barrels/tables, and all reloads must come from the barrels/tables. No ammo may be carried on the person." )

Hmmm. In this scenario, would the RO decline to start the shooter if he had illegal equipment (mags on belt)?

R.O. is to make sure the shooter starts in the start position per the rules and WSB, being out of compliance is on the shooter.

Should the R.O. refuse to start a shooter if their holster or other equipment doesn't meet the requirements for that division?

Recent match, I told a shooter her gun was too low on her belt, she said that it was a legal holster she bought, she didn't fix it the CRO on the stage said he was unsure of the rule, so she didn't change it, later I pointed out to her where to look in the rule book, yesterday she was at a match, still not in compliance, when she shoots a stage and Zero's it, maybe she will realize it has to comply.

IMO as long as the shooter gets in the proper start position the R.O. should start them, equipment violations are not part of the start position.

A shooter in C.O. had a Zev Slide on his gun, I started him then he got bumped to Open.

[teros135]

Thinking about this some more, if competitor has a mag on his person and uses it he's violated the WSB (all ammo used in the stage must come from the barrels/tables), and each shot fired from that mag violates the WSB. Therefore, 1 penalty per shot from the illegal mag. It's a heavy penalty, but the rules are the rules. (And will provide a good lesson for the entire squad...)

That's why it's a good idea to take all the mags off your belt in stages of this type. How many times have we seen the hand go to the belt for a reload, automatically?

And yes, a clearer WSB would be helpful. ("All ammo used must be staged on barrels/tables, and all reloads must come from the barrels/tables. No ammo may be carried on the person." )

Hmmm. In this scenario, would the RO decline to start the shooter if he had illegal equipment (mags on belt)?

R.O. is to make sure the shooter starts in the start position per the rules and WSB, being out of compliance is on the shooter.

Should the R.O. refuse to start a shooter if their holster or other equipment doesn't meet the requirements for that division?

Recent match, I told a shooter her gun was too low on her belt, she said that it was a legal holster she bought, she didn't fix it the CRO on the stage said he was unsure of the rule, so she didn't change it, later I pointed out to her where to look in the rule book, yesterday she was at a match, still not in compliance, when she shoots a stage and Zero's it, maybe she will realize it has to comply.

IMO as long as the shooter gets in the proper start position the R.O. should start them, equipment violations are not part of the start position.

A shooter in C.O. had a Zev Slide on his gun, I started him then he got bumped to Open.

Well, if the gear (holster/mag holders) is not in compliance with Division requirements, "any competitor who fails the foregoing test [holster/mag pouch distance from belt] will be required to immediately adjust his holster or equipment to comply with the requirements of the relevant Division" (5.2.5.2), so yes I'd not start them until that is done.

I would also not start anyone wearing a shoulder holster, tie-down rig, holster with the heel of the butt of the gun below the top of the belt, a holster with the gun's muzzle pointing further than 3 feet from the feet, or a holster where there is access to the trigger (5.2.7 and subsections), except where exceptions to this are noted.

How does somebody zero a stage by having illegal equipment? There's noting I can find in the rule book that covers zeroing during scoring because of equipment. If the equipment or positioning is not allowed, I think you can't start them.

[bret]

Thinking about this some more, if competitor has a mag on his person and uses it he's violated the WSB (all ammo used in the stage must come from the barrels/tables), and each shot fired from that mag violates the WSB. Therefore, 1 penalty per shot from the illegal mag. It's a heavy penalty, but the rules are the rules. (And will provide a good lesson for the entire squad...)

That's why it's a good idea to take all the mags off your belt in stages of this type. How many times have we seen the hand go to the belt for a reload, automatically?

And yes, a clearer WSB would be helpful. ("All ammo used must be staged on barrels/tables, and all reloads must come from the barrels/tables. No ammo may be carried on the person." )

Hmmm. In this scenario, would the RO decline to start the shooter if he had illegal equipment (mags on belt)?

R.O. is to make sure the shooter starts in the start position per the rules and WSB, being out of compliance is on the shooter.

Should the R.O. refuse to start a shooter if their holster or other equipment doesn't meet the requirements for that division?

Recent match, I told a shooter her gun was too low on her belt, she said that it was a legal holster she bought, she didn't fix it the CRO on the stage said he was unsure of the rule, so she didn't change it, later I pointed out to her where to look in the rule book, yesterday she was at a match, still not in compliance, when she shoots a stage and Zero's it, maybe she will realize it has to comply.

IMO as long as the shooter gets in the proper start position the R.O. should start them, equipment violations are not part of the start position.

A shooter in C.O. had a Zev Slide on his gun, I started him then he got bumped to Open.

Well, if the gear (holster/mag holders) is not in compliance with Division requirements, "any competitor who fails the foregoing test [holster/mag pouch distance from belt] will be required to immediately adjust his holster or equipment to comply with the requirements of the relevant Division" (5.2.5.2), so yes I'd not start them until that is done.

I would also not start anyone wearing a shoulder holster, tie-down rig, holster with the heel of the butt of the gun below the top of the belt, a holster with the gun's muzzle pointing further than 3 feet from the feet, or a holster where there is access to the trigger (5.2.7 and subsections), except where exceptions to this are noted.

How does somebody zero a stage by having illegal equipment? There's noting I can find in the rule book that covers zeroing during scoring because of equipment. If the equipment or positioning is not allowed, I think you can't start them.

http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-NROI-ruling-details.php?indx=75

5.2.5 and 5.2.5.2

5.2.5: Where a Division specifies a maximum distance that a competitor's handgun and equipment may extend away from a competitor's belt, the measurement shall be taken in the following manner:

--perpendicular to the top of the belt at the point of attachment to the belt

--from the innermost surface of the belt equipment (against the pants/body) to the closest point of the grip of the handgun and/or any reloading device

--measurements may be made with an official USPSA overlay, using either the width or length of the overlay as appropriate to the Division requirement. See App. D1-D7, #10 for requirements.

5.2.5.2: Any competitor who fails the foregoing test will immediately adjust his holster or equipment to comply with the requirements of the relevant Division. The Range Master may make allowances for variations in these requirements due to anatomical considerations. Some competitors may not be able to fully comply. Any competitor who shoots a course of fire while out of compliance will receive a zero score for that course of fire, unless specifically exempted by the Range Master. If the RO suspects or is notified that a competitor’s equipment is out of compliance for their relevant division, the RO must measure the distances at that time. Penalties will not be retroactive and will be based solely on measurements taken on a particular stage. The RM must be informed of any penalties applied due to non-compliance.

Edited June 27, 2016 by bret

[teros135]

Yes, if the RO allows the competitor to shoot the COF without a chance to adjust the gear, they zero it. Got that.

But our job isn't to be Draconian enforcers of laws but to assist the competitor in shooting the match. I'd rather help them get something fixed (than can be fixed, and if they're willing) than run them to a zero stage and feel all righteous about enforcing the rules, if the rules provide opportunity to help the competitor rather than hurt them. (The woman in the example above apparently made her own choice, though, having been advised of the rule.)

[bret]

Yes, if the RO allows the competitor to shoot the COF without a chance to adjust the gear, they zero it. Got that.

But our job isn't to be Draconian enforcers of laws but to assist the competitor in shooting the match. I'd rather help them get something fixed (than can be fixed, and if they're willing) than run them to a zero stage and feel all righteous about enforcing the rules, if the rules provide opportunity to help the competitor rather than hurt them. (The woman in the example above apparently made her own choice, though, having been advised of the rule.)

I have seen shooters look at their belt say it level, take a drivers license or overlay, put it on their belt, and it touches their gun at a downward angle and say its ok, it touches.

They don't understand or realize the card or tool used to measure it must be level and the butt of the gun can't be at at or below the belt, it has to be above it.

Some people think women are exempt from the equipment rule, in Single Stack they can have the front strap lower than the top of the belt, no Division is allowed to have the back strap of the gun below the belt, except limited exceptions in Level 1 matches for Active Military and Sworn Police Officers.

I look at peoples equipment before they shoot the stage if I can, sometimes I notice after they start.

as an example a guy loaded his pistol with a 170 in Multigun, I asked him if he was in Open, he said no, I told him he couldn't use a 170 in Tactical, Only in Open, so he switched the mag and he used a 140, since he made ready with a 170, he should have been bumped to open, but he wasn't.

We don't inspect peoples equipment like they do in IPSC at the beginning of every stage, and sometimes we only notice it after they are starting their COF.

It isn't about feeling righteous, it is following the rules, I make sure my gear is correct and in compliance for the Division I am in, it is the shooters responsibility for their equipment, no one else's.

[Peplow530]

I would give him 1 procedural. I don't think there's anything in the book that says to give someone an additional PE for each additional shot taken unless maybe it's a limited standards stage.

"5.1.2 Only one (1) PE is assessed for each type of infraction in a string of fire. If the shooter commits more than one type of infraction, such as using the wrong specified hand and firing an incorrect number of shots, a separate PE is assessed for each type of infraction. There are several exceptions to the one PE per infraction rule."

There's this but it is only under "limited scoring"

4.2.2 Any extra shots in a string of fire will incur one Procedural Error penalty per string and for each extra

shot one (1) of the best scoring hits will be taped over before the score is calculated. When the shooter does not fire enough rounds at a target, the unfired rounds are counted as misses, a Procedural Error penalty is assessed for not following the CoF description, and other penalties may apply.

To be clear, these appear to be from another rulebook (not USPSA, which is what folks have been citing above). Doesn't appear to be IPSC or IDPA, nor USPSA Rifle/shotgun/multigun rules, from the numbering.

Edit: Found it. It appears to be from the 2015 IDPA rules, so it's not applicable here.

Oops, I was bouncing back and forth between forum topics and forgot where I was. Never mind, I feel like an idiot now.

[teros135]

I would give him 1 procedural. I don't think there's anything in the book that says to give someone an additional PE for each additional shot taken unless maybe it's a limited standards stage.

"5.1.2 Only one (1) PE is assessed for each type of infraction in a string of fire. If the shooter commits more than one type of infraction, such as using the wrong specified hand and firing an incorrect number of shots, a separate PE is assessed for each type of infraction. There are several exceptions to the one PE per infraction rule."

There's this but it is only under "limited scoring"

4.2.2 Any extra shots in a string of fire will incur one Procedural Error penalty per string and for each extra

shot one (1) of the best scoring hits will be taped over before the score is calculated. When the shooter does not fire enough rounds at a target, the unfired rounds are counted as misses, a Procedural Error penalty is assessed for not following the CoF description, and other penalties may apply.

To be clear, these appear to be from another rulebook (not USPSA, which is what folks have been citing above). Doesn't appear to be IPSC or IDPA, nor USPSA Rifle/shotgun/multigun rules, from the numbering.

Edit: Found it. It appears to be from the 2015 IDPA rules, so it's not applicable here.

Oops, I was bouncing back and forth between forum topics and forgot where I was. Never mind, I feel like an idiot now.

No big deal. When we bounce back and forth between a CZ Shadow in Production and a 2011 in Limited, how often do we start to "roll" the 2011 hammer or put the safety on in the Shadow?

[waktasz]

If it was only one procedural I know for sure I have shot stages before in the past that I would just take the penalty on and reload off my belt. It has to be one per shot.

[jnkill]

On 6/4/2016 at 9:54 AM, teros135 said:

The OP said, "The CoF describes that all magazines used during the stage are to be placed on top of barrels, tables, etc..." That means they can't be on the belt, by definition. Probably be best if the WSB said "no magazines on the belt", but that's getting to be more like all the "lawyer language" we see on product packaging. ("This cereal was designed for oral ingestion. Do not rub this product in your eyes." )

That does not mean they can’t be on belt, that means they have to start on a barrel, if you want to pick them up and put them in your belt after cof begins, you can 

[motosapiens]

36 minutes ago, jnkill said:

That does not mean they can’t be on belt, that means they have to start on a barrel, if you want to pick them up and put them in your belt after cof begins, you can 

correct. if you want to prohibit that, you have to specifically prohibit it, or say 'all reloads must come from the barrels' or something similar.

[jnkill]

21 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

correct. if you want to prohibit that, you have to specifically prohibit it, or say 'all reloads must come from the barrels' or something similar.

Yup

[jhernandez]

on WSB it is clearly mentioned that it is an unloaded start... RO made the command "Make Ready", shooter loaded his gun then assumed the start position. Should RO allow the shooter to start the COF or he wait until the correct start procedure is followed?

[motosapiens]

29 minutes ago, jhernandez said:

on WSB it is clearly mentioned that it is an unloaded start... RO made the command "Make Ready", shooter loaded his gun then assumed the start position. Should RO allow the shooter to start the COF or he wait until the correct start procedure is followed?

RO should not start the shooter if the firearm is not in the specified ready condition. (shooter will just get a reshoot, which wastes everyone's time.)

 

note that this doesn't apply if the shooter fails to chamber a round when he is allowed to, but it does apply when the start is specified to be empty and the shooter mistakenly chambers a round.

[teros135]

6 hours ago, jnkill said:

That does not mean they can’t be on belt, that means they have to start on a barrel, if you want to pick them up and put them in your belt after cof begins, you can 

Like I said...