Using two different grip panels in USPSA Production

[Nik Habicht]

I'm not arguing for that reading, just saying I'd have a hard time against it, if sitting on an arbitration panel.....

You're telling me you'd rule against having two different factory grips on a production gun???

Not at all. I don't know how I'd rule -- I'd have to hear the arbitration arguments, examine any evidence, and consider the rules cited in the appeal. Keep in mind that members of an arbitration committee are required to base their decision on the rulebook (see 11.1.9) -- and that in production the onus is on the competitor to show that the rules specifically permit the modifications made (D4, item 21).

I cannot find a rule that specifically allows grips of different profiles. 21.4 provides some guidance and appears to open the door to virtually any change one might want to make, but 22.2 also weighs in on the subject and narrows it back down to not permitting changes to the factory profile. Can you point me to language that I've missed or grips (OEM or aftermarket) with different profiles that are otherwise legal?

[Nik Habicht]

I am at the 89.82% in USPSA Production. 3% of that is my AccuShadow. The other 86.82% is me.

so you agree with me that the only reason nils or bob didn't win last year was because of their crappy guns? You should email them to set them straight.

seriously... i also like a metal gun, but watching shane coley shoot a glock limited gun last weekend makes me suspect that it's more of a personal preference thing than anything else. Lots of guys kick azz with plastic guns.

I seem to remember a guy named Dave, who did ok at Production Nationals shooting a Glock for a number of years in the early oughts. And Rob Leatham may have a Production Nats win with a plastic gun -- oh yeah, Tulsa in 2006. But that's a bit of drift.....

[thermobollocks]

The factory grip/profile rule is in dire need of TLC from DNROI. I understand at some point thumb rests and big butts might be inappropriate for a "production" gun, but people have also been making grip panels that fit them better for over a hundred years.

And don't even get me started on the M&P gripstrap.

[d_striker]

I'm not arguing for that reading, just saying I'd have a hard time against it, if sitting on an arbitration panel.....

You're telling me you'd rule against having two different factory grips on a production gun???

Not at all. I don't know how I'd rule -- I'd have to hear the arbitration arguments, examine any evidence, and consider the rules cited in the appeal. Keep in mind that members of an arbitration committee are required to base their decision on the rulebook (see 11.1.9) -- and that in production the onus is on the competitor to show that the rules specifically permit the modifications made (D4, item 21).

I cannot find a rule that specifically allows grips of different profiles. 21.4 provides some guidance and appears to open the door to virtually any change one might want to make, but 22.2 also weighs in on the subject and narrows it back down to not permitting changes to the factory profile. Can you point me to language that I've missed or grips (OEM or aftermarket) with different profiles that are otherwise legal?

I think that's fair.

What it all seems to boil down to is what the definition of "factory profile" entails.

[kneelingatlas]

22.2 applies to specifically to revolvers. Replacement grip panels are specifically allowed, they do not extend below the but of the gun, nor change the profile.

Nonsense. There's nothing in 22.2 that states it applies to wheel guns only; rather there is language specifically stating that it does NOT apply to revolvers.

I read 22.2, you're right Nik

Edited May 20, 2016 by kneelingatlas

[Nik Habicht]

22.2 applies to specifically to revolvers. Replacement grip panels are specifically allowed, they do not extend below the but of the gun, nor change the profile.

Nonsense. There's nothing in 22.2 that states it applies to wheel guns only; rather there is language specifically stating that it does NOT apply to revolvers.

Nik, this is a direct quote from D4, 21.4: "See 22.2, below, for specifics with regard to modifications on revolver grips."

Mmmmm is that all that 21.4 says? Little disingenuous to look at only a portion of 21.4:

• For semi-automatic Production guns, grip tape, grip sleeves, checkering, stippling or other texture may only be applied in the areas shown in appendix E4. Glue and grit is considered the same as stippling.

• Replacement grip panels are allowed provided they do not extend below the butt of the gun to form a make-shift magwell.

• Revolver grips may be replaced with OFM or aftermarket grips of any shape, profile and surface texture.

Special Notes/Clarifications:

• See 22.2, below, for specifics with regard to modifications on revolver grips.

And then you still actually need to reed 22.2 as well. It says:

Grips – any addition or removal of material which changes the factory profile or adds function such as beavertail or thumb rest.

As noted above (21.4) Revolver grips may be replaced with OFM or aftermarket grips of any shape, profile and surface texture. 22.2 is deemed to NOT APPLY to REVOLVER grips. Adding or removing material to change the profile of Revolver grips is ALLOWED.

So really 22.2 says that you can't modify the grips of production guns in such a way that you're changing the factory profile or adding function, unless you're making those changes to a revolver. As demonstrated by looking at all of it -- 22.2 most definitely is not reserved for wheel guns; it doesn't apply to revolvers at all. English is my second language; did I flunk reading comprehension again?

I'd argue that one skinny and one fat side panel just might be changing the factory profile of a non-revolver production blaster.....

[d_striker]

By no means is this an official ruling, but this is what Troy had to say about the matter on USPSA forums. I expect his email response will be similar.

As long as the profile (which as illustrated in the diagram showing where to put grip tape or stippling) is not altered, you can add width or thickness to the grips. You can replace grip panels, add shims, etc.

http://www.uspsa.org/forums/index.php?/topic/1580-may-i-add-width-on-a-production-gun-grip/&do=findComment&comment=20460

[kneelingatlas]

You're too quick Nik!

[Nik Habicht]

You're too quick Nik!

It took forever to edit the language of 22.2 back so that the words were in the right order......

It copied and pasted going across both fields in the rulebook.....

Simultaneous posting is cool...

[Nik Habicht]

By no means is this an official ruling, but this is what Troy had to say about the matter on USPSA forums. I expect his email response will be similar.

As long as the profile (which as illustrated in the diagram showing where to put grip tape or stippling) is not altered, you can add width or thickness to the grips. You can replace grip panels, add shims, etc.

http://www.uspsa.org/forums/index.php?/topic/1580-may-i-add-width-on-a-production-gun-grip/&do=findComment&comment=20460

I threw out a follow-up question. I'd consider his opinion, in reaching a decision -- but I'd also consider the opinions of other RMs or RMIs. If however there was an interpretation -- that would be binding, as part of the rules....

[motosapiens]

I'm not arguing for that reading, just saying I'd have a hard time against it, if sitting on an arbitration panel.....

You're telling me you'd rule against having two different factory grips on a production gun???

Not at all. I don't know how I'd rule -- I'd have to hear the arbitration arguments, examine any evidence, and consider the rules cited in the appeal. Keep in mind that members of an arbitration committee are required to base their decision on the rulebook (see 11.1.9) -- and that in production the onus is on the competitor to show that the rules specifically permit the modifications made (D4, item 21).

I cannot find a rule that specifically allows grips of different profiles. 21.4 provides some guidance and appears to open the door to virtually any change one might want to make, but 22.2 also weighs in on the subject and narrows it back down to not permitting changes to the factory profile. Can you point me to language that I've missed or grips (OEM or aftermarket) with different profiles that are otherwise legal?

I think that's fair.

What it all seems to boil down to is what the definition of "factory profile" entails.

if you look in the dictionary, profile means 'view from the side' and has nothing to do with grip thickness. I like how thoroughly Nik thinks these things through, but I think he is off-base on this. Of course the production rules are kinda wacked anyway, so I can see where people get carried away.

[d_striker]

Yeah, I think he's really overthinking on this one.

By his logic, changing to any thin metal grip from the OEM rubbers would be changing the profile.

[thermobollocks]

Can you find another gun on the Production list and gunsmith the grips on? Like say you've got big fatty hands and you want to jam a giant Sig wraparound on it?

[JAFO]

The rule is a bit of a mess wrt Sig E2 grips in particular. They are legal because they come on several Production-approved guns from the factory. But because of the shape, they actually do change the front-to-back profile of a gun that came with plastic panels. But I've seen the same model come both ways from the factory. With a few exceptions like the X5 Allround (which never came with E2's), it's difficult to know what type of grips were installed on any particular P-series gun at the factory.

Aside from that, Hogue has rubber, G-10, aluminum, and wood panels, smooth and textured for many. The rubber wrap-around grips have finger grooves, so those would be out. But as far as thickness is concerned, you can go thinner than factory plastic with Nills wood or G-10s. You can go thicker with Equinox-type wood grips or rubber panels. I've never seen anyone mix-and-match, but I wouldn't vote against it as long as either grip is otherwise legal. It would be the same as custom stippling plastic panels differently on one side vs the other.

[thermobollocks]

What if an OEM offers a gun on the Production list with the Hogue finger grippies?

[JAFO]

What if an OEM offers a gun on the Production list with the Hogue finger grippies?

If that was the case, it should be allowed. Sig doesn't offer one, but I have no idea if other manufacturers might.

[Nemesis Lead]

Got a response from Troy--see below:

Yes, that's legal. The rules only deal with the profile of production guns, not the width of the panels.

Troy

[Nik Habicht]

I'm on board with that......