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308 vs 6.5 creedmoor


usmc1974

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The 1600 was a bonus stage without any points attached, but the 800 & 900 were during a regular stage that each took 20 seconds each off your time if you got the hit. Last year they were only worth 10 seconds, so very few people bothered with the bonus rifle. This year, about 30% of the shooters at least took a swing at the 800-1000 yard bonus targets.

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I'm not getting more than 2792 FPS out of any factory loads with mine. It is a 20" barrel in an LR-308 platform and all I've run so far is factory ammo. (I was wanting to see what it was capable of before selecting an appropriate scope for it and going full Type-A on it.)

2792 FPS - Hornady 129gr SST Superformance

2738 FPS - Hornady 120gr A-MAX Match

2603 FPS - Hornady 143gr ELD-X Precision Hunter

2574 FPS - Hornady 140gr ELD Match

2572 FPS - Winchester 140gr Match

The Hornady Superformance is loaded short and has nearly 0.200" of jump. It produces the worst groups and doesn't give me the warm fuzzies to run due to some other behaviors. The Precision Hunter is also loaded surprisingly short and had the second worst groups.

I realize it is largely the 20" barrel that has my velocities lower than much of that posted here, but I assume most of you guys are loading your own to achieve your listed velocities and running 24"+ barrels?

Also worth noting, two of those Hornady loads are within 0.010" of SAAMI spec at the throat and won't even chamber in some Savage rifles without marking the bullet. There is much griping in the cloud suggesting that Hornady shorten their loads, but it rather seems Savage needs a new chamber reamer.

As for the debate at hand, I wouldn't have had a 6.5 Creedmoor on the radar had I not made a 1600 yard shot in a 3-Gun bonus stage with a borrowed one. I hit the 800 & 900 on the clock with my 26" barreled Remington 700 in .308, but it didn't have the gas (or optic) for the 1600 bonus stage. In a variable 10-15 MPH wind I used my 1000 yard .308 wind correction for the borrowed 6.5 at 1600 yards and connected. That was the proverbial (take my) money shot.

The Superformance loads, any of them, aren't the best for semi auto rifles. Even in some bolt guns it doesn;t shoot well. It's a little hit or miss as I have a rifle that shoot the 178 Superformance .308 load great and another that is over MOA. The way the powder burns it has a different curve and can show pressure and not shoot well in semis though. An adjustable gas block can help you tune the load. Here is Hornady's write up on it. http://www.hornady.com/ammunition/superformance-in-gas-operated-firearms

Yes I run 26+" Creedmoors with my two now at 27" and 28". I like to have the ease of getting velocity and have no problem getting them around through obstacles at matches. My semi auto is a 22" but that's a trade off for ballistics for a DMR rifle which will take most shots inside 600 yards or so. My other bolt guns are made for long range matches.

The problem with the short chambers on Savage rifles is a rifle problem and not an ammo problem. With a properly chambered rifle factory ammo works just fine and is not into the lands. It's a well known issue with Savage rifles having short chambers and they will fix it if you send it back.

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Thanks for the Hornady link. That explains my experience with the 6.5 Superformance in my CA-10. The Superformance line works great in my .308 bolt gun. In fact, it's what I got my 800 and 900 yard hits in the match with.

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The 1600 was a bonus stage without any points attached, but the 800 & 900 were during a regular stage that each took 20 seconds each off your time if you got the hit. Last year they were only worth 10 seconds, so very few people bothered with the bonus rifle. This year, about 30% of the shooters at least took a swing at the 800-1000 yard bonus targets.

with a low power scope like say a Burris Mtac 1-4 power how do you even see a 16"x 18" steel at over 500 yards let alone 800-1000 yards.
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The 1600 was a bonus stage without any points attached, but the 800 & 900 were during a regular stage that each took 20 seconds each off your time if you got the hit. Last year they were only worth 10 seconds, so very few people bothered with the bonus rifle. This year, about 30% of the shooters at least took a swing at the 800-1000 yard bonus targets.

with a low power scope like say a Burris Mtac 1-4 power how do you even see a 16"x 18" steel at over 500 yards let alone 800-1000 yards.

The steel at 800-1600 yards was around 3' square. Most engaged it with a bonus rifle that had a much higher magnification than their 3-Gun rifle. Mine was only at 6X as I'm one of those 'rabid anti knob twisters' that runs a 2nd focal plane Mil-Dot at half power and holds over for targets beyond 700 yards. The 1600 yard stage was shot with a different rifle that had a 20X+ Nightforce on it. It was dialed for elevation and holding for wind was the primary concern.

During the off-time between squads, (as I was one of the staff on the stage during the main match,) I sent a magazine worth of rounds at the 1000 with my Limited gun (Eotech). Seeing the target was less problematic than correcting for a 10-15 MPH wind with a 69gr .223 round. I kicked dirt up all around it, but nothing connected.

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A lot of it depends on the target, splash plate and terrain contrast. White painted steel in the desert is easier for me with an Eotech than red painted steel any day. I turn my dot way down for stages with a lot of long range. With a red target as soon as I'm on it my faint dot disappears. While I got the 800 and 900 at 6X, the shot up white painted steel at 400 wasn't to be found by me with an Eotech.

Last year there was a stage with 200+ yard targets where the splash plate required 2 hits and the manual reset 8" target needed dropped as well. The targets were red, splash plates black. I dropped the red plates first and then couldn't find the black splash plates in the shadowed terrain. A big, white plate against a dark canyon rim, however, is pretty easy to find, even at 1600 yards. Every 700-1000 yard shot I've ever made has been at 6X, so anything more than that feels like cheating.

The 6.5 Creedmoor will be wearing a 6.5-20 Leupold Mark 4. I again went 2nd focal plane because I want to use holdover as far out as possible, which also means cutting the magnification in half to get out to 1000 yards. I will have to dial for anything beyond that, but I'm looking forward to being able to use 10X out to 1000.

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The 6.5 Creedmoor will be wearing a 6.5-20 Leupold Mark 4. I again went 2nd focal plane because I want to use holdover as far out as possible, which also means cutting the magnification in half to get out to 1000 yards. I will have to dial for anything beyond that, but I'm looking forward to being able to use 10X out to 1000.

FFP and mil dots no hold over needed. Just saying.

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"holdover" is what you do with mil-dots or hashes, as opposed to dialing and using the center crosshair.

The 6.5 Creedmoor will be wearing a 6.5-20 Leupold Mark 4. I again went 2nd focal plane because I want to use holdover as far out as possible, which also means cutting the magnification in half to get out to 1000 yards. I will have to dial for anything beyond that, but I'm looking forward to being able to use 10X out to 1000.

that is pretty suboptimal for precision rifle shooting.

how are you getting to exactly the right magnification?

assuming your creedmoor is ballpark 8 mils to 1000, you realize if you use 10x as half the magnification, you've added a tenth of a mil error?

if you accidentally went to 11x, that's a .4 error in elevation which means assuming your trigger pulling and wind calls are perfect, you still won't touch a 2 MOA plate at 1000k.

if you only plan to shoot at full size IPSC or larger targets, you might be tempted to say "it doesn't matter" but if you think precise magnification setting doesn't matter, what will happen is when you tag the bottom of that IPSC, you'll say, "oh my dope must be off. i better true my muzzle velocity". don't plan on getting first round hits after that

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"holdover" is what you do with mil-dots or hashes, as opposed to dialing and using the center crosshair.

The 6.5 Creedmoor will be wearing a 6.5-20 Leupold Mark 4. I again went 2nd focal plane because I want to use holdover as far out as possible, which also means cutting the magnification in half to get out to 1000 yards. I will have to dial for anything beyond that, but I'm looking forward to being able to use 10X out to 1000.

that is pretty suboptimal for precision rifle shooting.

how are you getting to exactly the right magnification?

assuming your creedmoor is ballpark 8 mils to 1000, you realize if you use 10x as half the magnification, you've added a tenth of a mil error?

if you accidentally went to 11x, that's a .4 error in elevation which means assuming your trigger pulling and wind calls are perfect, you still won't touch a 2 MOA plate at 1000k.

if you only plan to shoot at full size IPSC or larger targets, you might be tempted to say "it doesn't matter" but if you think precise magnification setting doesn't matter, what will happen is when you tag the bottom of that IPSC, you'll say, "oh my dope must be off. i better true my muzzle velocity". don't plan on getting first round hits after that

The 6.5 Creedmoor is being set up primarily as a 3-Gun bonus rifle. I realize this is the Precision Rifle forum, but it IS tucked inside the general Multi-Gun forum with somewhat less than PRS accuracy standards, so we might not be on the same page. Some of our 800+ yard targets are the size of a small hatchback.

;)

The intent of this rifle was to be able to engage the typical 3 MOA bonus targets that range from 500-1000 yards very quickly, without dialing on the clock and with a better wind call buffer than my .308 AR-10 or Remington 700. I also wanted more than the 4 rounds I get in my Remington 700 with empty chamber start.

If the targets are inside of 700 yards I will be able to use full magnification with my existing zero, which should be fine if they all live close together on the hill.

If they are a mix of inside 700 and beyond (out to ~1000), I will simply cut the magnification in half and shoot them all with this magnification. (This will indeed be thoroughly proofed and tested well ahead of trying it in a match. I've used this successfully on a number of rifles with SFP and have added small reference dots at the proven, actual 50% magnification of the optic. My understanding is that the 20X on the Mark 4 is actually 19.5, so this will be critical to verify on this rifle. This is easier with my Tac Ops 3-Gun optic as I have a stop at 5.5X, where I've determined my 1X-6X optic's BCD is accurate out to 600 yards.)

Once I chronograph, verify a load and establish its zero, I don't second guess it on the clock. If I don't get a first round hit, I don't revert to knob twisting. I assume it is between me and the target and correct for what I hopefully see in downrange feedback.

If I have a target beyond 1000 yards, I plan to dial as far as practical off the clock (based on the current conditions of the stage), update my zero to that range in Strelok and hold for the rest. If I also have targets inside of my new zero, I will engage them with Strelok's chart for hold-under handy.

Again, this is primarily for 3-Gun. Once the rifle is set-up for the stage, getting in and out from behind the rifle is typically on the clock, along with all shots taken. This is sometimes after you have engaged several targets from 100-400 yards with your regular 3-Gun rifle, emptied a shotgun and run 25 yards to the prone platform. Most of the time the 'bonus' is only 10-20 seconds per each hit (with a given max) for 800-1000 yards shots, so time is more important than accuracy and target size (and presentation) is what decides whether they are even worth engaging at all.

Where is the .1 Mil error at half magnification coming from? Refraction of the glass at a magnification other than that the reticle is tuned for?

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cool, yep different pages. no problem

the .1 is from the 19.5x, which you clearly already know. and if you were planning to test it and mark it with dots, your plan should work. but it still seems like a lot of extra effort to go through when you could just get a FFP. i mean, if you already have a SFP, sure do what you have to, but it sounded like you were setting it up from scratch and intentionally picked sfp.

sounds like an interesting match!

we had a similar stage to what you describe at the K&M PRS match last weekend. weren't allowed to touch the scope and had targets at 700, 800, 900, 1000, 1100, 1200. the last one put me into the post on my reticle so i had to dial up to the 700 target and hold from there.

Edited by taliv
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Logixtix, your plan is not a very good one. If you want to do everything with holdovers, there are some practical options, but using a second focal scope on a lower power than the retical is set for is not one of them. Too many stacking errors. If you are set on holdovers only, get a Horus on a fixed or first plane scope and be done with it. Or learn to dial.

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...your plan is not a very good one.

That is what I used to think when I saw revolver instructional videos from Jerry. How can the gun changing hands twice be faster than using your weak hand to reload the gun? He somehow makes it work. I have many first round 1000 yard hits with my 2nd focal plane holdover method and I've put others behind the same gun with the same result. It works, but I'll agree it isn't the best plan on paper.

I'm open to suggestions for the 6.5, but for this gun I'm again placing speed of getting hits on presented target over absolute accuracy. If I could efficiently get out to 1000+ yards with a first focal plane reticle I would be thrilled. I would be especially thrilled if it was in the ballpark of the Mark 4's price. What FFP (or fixed magnification) scopes with the Horus have 10 Mil+ worth of drop in the reticle?

I'm already finding that the Mark 4 isn't long for this gun. It's a great scope, but very slow for me on the clock. The idea of the 6.5 Creedmoor in an AR platform was 1 MOA accuracy with quick transitions between targets at distance and less time spent on wind calls. The finicky parallax adjustment and the narrow eye relief on the Mark 4 is slowing me down at 20X (where the Mil-Dot is accurate) and I'm finding myself actually preferring it at half power (which I have verified is actually at the 12X mark on this scope, oddly enough). Every 1000 yard hit I have ever made has been at 6X. Every other Mil-Dot I have in use is accurate for ranging at 12X. I shoot Limited, so anything more than 1X always feels like a bonus. I could probably handle a fixed magnification scope with a Horus reticle if it got me out to the limit of the rifle with holdover.

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It's not a question of which FFP scope with a Horus reticle has 10+ mils visible. Just pick the power you want for a stage and the mils are what they are marked. It is more a question of which reticle. I run a h-59 in a Schmidt 5-25 on my 6.5x47. I see about 7mils on 25 power and at around 18 see 10. I shoot most of my PRS style stages at 12-15 power. So seeing 10+ mils for holds isn't an issue at those powers. The h-37 starts higher and so you could see more hold points at a higher power.

Just off the top of my head, bushnell, leupold, and Schmidt all make scopes with true Horus reticles. I'm sure there are more. Then there are Christmas tree reticles that are similar. Vortex is the first that comes to mind, and bushy has other non Horus Christmas tree reticles.

I'd recommend you take a look at the bushy hdmr 3-21. Good power range, great price, has the h-59, and decent glass. At that point, just pick the power you want for the stage and the holds are what they are marked, no calculation needed.

Also, a lot of times I set my parallax to infinity and go. I'll only dial to the best setting if it is a single target stage. That works on my S&b, leupy, and nightforce.

Edited by TRG65
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It's not a question of which FFP scope with a Horus reticle has 10+ mils visible. Just pick the power you want for a stage and the mils are what they are marked. It is more a question of which reticle. I run a h-59 in a Schmidt 5-25 on my 6.5x47. I see about 7mils on 25 power and at around 18 see 10. I shoot most of my PRS style stages at 12-15 power. So seeing 10+ mils for holds isn't an issue at those powers. The h-37 starts higher and so you could see more hold points at a higher power.

Just off the top of my head, bushnell, leupold, and Schmidt all make scopes with true Horus reticles. I'm sure there are more. Then there are Christmas tree reticles that are similar. Vortex is the first that comes to mind, and bushy has other non Horus Christmas tree reticles.

I'd recommend you take a look at the bushy hdmr 3-21. Good power range, great price, has the h-59, and decent glass. At that point, just pick the power you want for the stage and the holds are what they are marked, no calculation needed.

Also, a lot of times I set my parallax to infinity and go. I'll only dial to the best setting if it is a single target stage. That works on my S&b, leupy, and nightforce.

Thanks! That's making a lot more sense for the application at hand.

The Vortex at first glance seems like the way to go, but it is in MOA and not the mRad that I'm used to thinking in. The Bushnell HDMR looks like a good option as well, but it would take a while for me to develop trust in their quality as past experience with their cheaper lines is part of what has me preferring holdover to dialing. If it holds zero, it looks like I would only have to dial beyond 1000 yards.

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Yup the Razor II 2C reticle comes in both MOA and Mils. I have had the mil version for a while now and it works great for holds. I have one in a 3-18x and one in a 4.5-27x and a 4.5-27x with the 1C.

sub_rzr-g2_f_45-27x56_ebr-2c_mrad-t.jpg

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