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sclagg

When does an RO score your targets? Read to understand...

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On the A6 stage it was pretty simple to call stacking. If there were 2 shots on any target after string 1 you were stacking if you intended to stack or not.

In his example it would also be simple. If there are shots on a target that should not have shots on it after the first string you have a couple of ways to go. Not following the written stage brief or stacking.

That's not correct though. You could have been firing a makeup shot, because while it still penalizes you for extra shots, you can still do it. For example you call a mike and shoot again, if you get the alpha then you are only getting a 5 point penalty (10 for extra shot - 5 for an alpha).

Stacking isn't stacking unless you shoot some targets extra times and some targets not enough times.

And the reason I said at the beginning of this thread that you have to be 100% certain if you are going to call stacking is because it gets a little subjective. How do you know I didn't just jerk that shot and get a miss on 1 target and an extra hit on another? Can you articulate that and put up a convincing argument when I arbitrate the call?

A makeup shot will be an extra shot, if that makeup shot hits a target and you end up with an extra hit you will get that penalty as well. In that case I would not call stacking as you should not get a penalty for both and extra hit and stacking.

If you end up with 2 hits on any of the paper targets (and have not fired an extra shot) after string 1 you are stacking. If you want to call it a miss the penalty is the same so go ahead.

I watch the gun. If in this stage you jerked it enough to put it in another target I would know. In that case you would just get the miss.

Nobody said running standards stages was easy.

Stacking and extra shot penalties have to be assigned at the firing line, not downrange once you get to the targets. So you have to know simply by my muzzle direction which targets I was engaging. Especially since you are staring at the gun, you have to know exactly which targets I was engaging WITHOUT walking up to count holes.

Reason #463 why Virginia Count should be deep sixed.

I don't like everything IPSC does, but going to Comstock-only scoring was a smart move.

We can agree on that

I like them. But this is a definite rules thing I don't like.

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So on a Virginia count stage, choosing to make up a shot is considered stacking?

This would mean a penalty for the extra shot, one for an extra hit if there is one, plus one for stacking?

While it doesn't explicitly state it in the rules, stacking only applies when you have targets that must be addressed in separate strings and when you put extra shots on one target and too few on another. It also does not only apply to Virginia count stages.

If the stage description said, "Virginia Count. String 1: From Box A engage T1-T3 with exactly one round each. String 2: From Box B engage T1-T3 with exactly one round each"

1. If you shot 1-2-1 in string one....Extra Shot (extra hits, if there, get called after the shooting is over)

2. if you shot 1-2-0 in string one....Stacking (extra hits, if there, ....)

If the stage description said, "Comstock. String 1: From Box A engage T1-T3 with at least two rounds each. String 2: From Box B engage T1-T3 with at least two rounds each"

(could be the case when T1 is a difficult shot from Box B and T3 is difficult from Box A)

1. If you shot 4-2-0 in string one that would earn a stacking penalty (with the implication that you did it so you could shoot 0-2-4 on string two).

2. If you shot 4-2-2 in string one and 2-2-2 in string two, no penalty.

3. If you shot 4-2-2 in string one and 0-2-2 in string two, one penalty for not following the WSB.

You can't have a Comstock stage with strings of fire......

That would be a standard exercise, no? At least by my reading of the rulebook.....

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You can't have a Comstock stage with strings of fire......

That would be a standard exercise, no? At least by my reading of the rulebook.....

Oops, I was thinking you could have a comstock standards stage. Thank you!

1.2.2.1 Standard Exercises - Courses of fire consisting of two or more separately timed component strings. Scores, with any penalties deducted, are accumulated on completion of the course of fire to produce the final stage results. Standard Exercises must only be scored using Virginia Count or Fixed Time. The course of fire for each component string may require a specific shooting position, procedure and/or one or more mandatory reloads. Standard Exercises must not require more than 24 rounds to complete. Component strings must not require more than 6 rounds (12 rounds if a mandatory reload is specified).

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Fixed time is something I get, and totally makes sense for standards... test the abstract ability to make shots on demand in an allotted time and with fixed rounds. I think the sport could do without standards, but I understand the rationale.

Virginia Count is like saying "there is a continuing threat you have not neutralized, and you have extra ammo left, but you can't continue to engage that threat because... well, because we came up with a dumb idea at a match in Virginia years ago, and nobody had the sense to strangle it at birth" (well IPSC did... they never adopted the concept).

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Fixed time is something I get, and totally makes sense for standards... test the abstract ability to make shots on demand in an allotted time and with fixed rounds. I think the sport could do without standards, but I understand the rationale.

Virginia Count is like saying "there is a continuing threat you have not neutralized, and you have extra ammo left, but you can't continue to engage that threat because... well, because we came up with a dumb idea at a match in Virginia years ago, and nobody had the sense to strangle it at birth" (well IPSC did... they never adopted the concept).

I think getting rid of standards would be totally wrong. They are the most pure shooting challenge in the sport. Standards are just distilled shooting, all the other crap has been filtered out. "You have 6 seconds to shoot these 6 targets reload and shoot them again. Stand and deliver."

I think we do too much running and gunning/hosing type shooting in USPSA. I happen to believe that the technical shooting and stages that happen in IPSC matches is much more interesting, because it shows who can deliver on demand. That's part of why I really like classifiers and the very technical short courses we see in matches.

As far as having both fixed time and virginia count standards, I see the justification for both, and enjoy them both. They present very different challenges.

And that's the whole reason we are here, isn't it?

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Not that it matters but the CRO for that stage was our very own Area 6 director, Bruce Wells. I think he's run a shooter or two over the years :).

We had guys screw up the stage by shooting 5, reloading and shooting the same 5 targets again. The WSB specifically stated you must engage the OTHER 5 targets after the mandatory reload. I think the WSB mandating this caused the RO's to watch for stacking very closely.

It's my understanding that stage is going to become a classifier.

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it was my experience at area 6, both shooting one day and working a stage the other 3, that half the shooters didn't listen to a word of the stage briefing.

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Stacking calls on a true standards (timed fire) is a useful tool. However, stacking calls on a VC course of fire seems questionable depending on the actual stage. Because a shooter has a brain poot and fires two rather than one on a target does not rise to the level of stacking, IMO. The normal VC penalties are sufficient.

I do agree that VC could go away and I wouldn't miss it.

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If the intent of the stage was to get you to brain fart it worked on me. I had a plan in my head, ran it over a dozen times or so, got up to the line and shot the first part of the plan (freestyle) backwards. Then proceeded to run the 2nd part of the plan (strong hand) in the correct order. I stacked a shot on one target because of the brain fart.

In this case the VC penalties would not have applied as I fired the correct number of shots. If stacking was allowed I would have shot the stage very differently with less mental gymnastics.

It is possible if they had not told me of the stacking I might have run into the VC penalties on the second string.

I thought it was a good stage, well run by the crew, and a good test which I failed.

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You could have received a procedural for not following the stage procedure of one shot per target.

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At Open nationals last year there was a stage where stacking was allowed. We ran the same stage in Limited where stacking was not allowed. Very different stage from one match to the other with the same targets.

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Fixed time is something I get, and totally makes sense for standards... test the abstract ability to make shots on demand in an allotted time and with fixed rounds. I think the sport could do without standards, but I understand the rationale.

Virginia Count is like saying "there is a continuing threat you have not neutralized, and you have extra ammo left, but you can't continue to engage that threat because... well, because we came up with a dumb idea at a match in Virginia years ago, and nobody had the sense to strangle it at birth" (well IPSC did... they never adopted the concept).

:roflol:

Agreed.

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Fixed time is something I get, and totally makes sense for standards... test the abstract ability to make shots on demand in an allotted time and with fixed rounds. I think the sport could do without standards, but I understand the rationale.

Virginia Count is like saying "there is a continuing threat you have not neutralized, and you have extra ammo left, but you can't continue to engage that threat because... well, because we came up with a dumb idea at a match in Virginia years ago, and nobody had the sense to strangle it at birth" (well IPSC did... they never adopted the concept).

I'm pretty sure that Virginia Count existed in IPSC -- considering that was the sport starting in 1976. The rulebooks only separated what -- about two decades ago? At some point IPSC dropped Virginia Count like they dropped the Metric target.....

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Not that it matters but the CRO for that stage was our very own Area 6 director, Bruce Wells. I think he's run a shooter or two over the years :).

We had guys screw up the stage by shooting 5, reloading and shooting the same 5 targets again. The WSB specifically stated you must engage the OTHER 5 targets after the mandatory reload. I think the WSB mandating this caused the RO's to watch for stacking very closely.

It's my understanding that stage is going to become a classifier.

You could have received a procedural for not following the stage procedure of one shot per target.

So, that begs the question--wouldn't a per-shot procedural for failure to follow the stage brief be the appropriate penalty?

I'll be honest here--I don't know that I understand the stacking penalty well enough to assess it. I'd probably default to something like failing to follow the WSB.

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Between "Make Ready" and "Range is Clear", only official range commands or safety stuff are to be used.

According to what rule?

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Between "Make Ready" and "Range is Clear", only official range commands or safety stuff are to be used.

According to what rule?

8.3

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Between "Make Ready" and "Range is Clear", only official range commands or safety stuff are to be used.

According to what rule?

8.3

8.3.6.1

Says other interim range commands may be given in stages with more than 1 string.

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Between "Make Ready" and "Range is Clear", only official range commands or safety stuff are to be used.

According to what rule?

8.3

8.3.6.1

Says other interim range commands may be given in stages with more than 1 string.

Then it gets specific about what kind of commands. "in order to prepare the competitor for the second and subsequent strings"

8.3.6.1 When conducting Standard Exercises, Range Officials may issue other interim commands on completion of the first string, in order to prepare the competitor for the second and subsequent strings. (e.g. “Reload if required and holster”). This option may also be applied when two or more courses of fire share a common shooting bay or area.

Look, this post should have been over a while ago. They ran the stage consistently across all squads. Would I announce the procedural between strings, probably not but there is a good argument both ways. I for one am glad they did as it gave me a chance to save some points.

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I read 8.3 and it's sub paragraphs word for word last night before posting. 8.3 says what the official range commands are. Nowhere does it say an RO may utter ONLY the official range commands during a COF.

It may be bad form, it may be unnerving to a shooter, but nowhere is it against the rules.

I don't think it is necessary for ROs to call the range hot or tell people to put on their eyes and ears prior to each shooter starting a COF, but it is not against the rules to do so.

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"The approved range commands and their sequence are as follows: "

In both my RO class and CRO class this was taken to mean, this is what you are allowed to say. These are approved, by default the others aren't was the way it was explained to me.

Before Make Ready you can say what you want but especialy in largert matches where there may be people that don't speak english it's better for your first words to be "Make Ready". I have seen a few people sent home for thinking they heard it but didn't.

Then further down in 8.3.6.1 it specifically allows you to use other commands so again the assumption is you should only use the "approved" range commands.

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The stage was run correctly, it can be a confusing stage.

Announcing a procedural and verifying the targets between strings assured the stage was scored correctly.

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"The approved range commands and their sequence are as follows: "

In both my RO class and CRO class this was taken to mean, this is what you are allowed to say. These are approved, by default the others aren't was the way it was explained to me.

Before Make Ready you can say what you want but especialy in largert matches where there may be people that don't speak english it's better for your first words to be "Make Ready". I have seen a few people sent home for thinking they heard it but didn't.

Then further down in 8.3.6.1 it specifically allows you to use other commands so again the assumption is you should only use the "approved" range commands.

I don't mean to come off as argumentative, but that is not what is written in the official rule book and until there is an official determination, it is not enforceable. "taken to mean, this is what you are allowed to say" from a class is simply not official.

I always use the official commands. Agree with you that it is especially important when running international shooters and/or those with English as their second language. Saying the range is going hot could be interpreted as "Make Ready" by someone who only knows the official commands. How dickish would an RO feel for DQing someone who responds to "range going hot" when all they know is "Make Ready"? Seen it happen. Shooter was pissed even after it was explained in his native tongue what happened. He heard the RO speak. He was used to ROs saying MR or LAMR, as the case may be.

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