When does an RO score your targets? Read to understand...

[sclagg]

So at Area 6 on stage 10 there were two strings and two boxes. After shooting one string I began to move to the next box and was stopped by the RO because he was penalizing me for an extra hit, he quickly clarified "stacking". It was a disastrous moment trying to process what he was saying and making an effort to repair what I had done. Keep in mind he could only clearly see just a few targets. In theory, I could have had several penalties that he could not see until I had truly finished and he walked down range.

The match was awesome.. this is not a complaint but a question. Should or can RO's do this? Are there any rules that could help give clarity?

After imploding and zeroing the stage I questioned him and his explanation was respectful but basically there is nothing in the handbook that keeps him from doing what he did. We left amicably and I have no hard feelings.

I'm looking but so far I've found nothing.

[ChuckS]

So at Area 6 on stage 10 there were two strings and two boxes. After shooting one string I began to move to the next box and was stopped by the RO because he was penalizing me for an extra hit, he quickly clarified "stacking". It was a disastrous moment trying to process what he was saying and making an effort to repair what I had done. Keep in mind he could only clearly see just a few targets. In theory, I could have had several penalties that he could not see until I had truly finished and he walked down range.

The match was awesome.. this is not a complaint but a question. Should or can RO's do this? Are there any rules that could help give clarity?

After imploding and zeroing the stage I questioned him and his explanation was respectful but basically there is nothing in the handbook that keeps him from doing what he did. We left amicably and I have no hard feelings.

I'm looking but so far I've found nothing.

If he said that before he said, "Range is Clear", he blew it. Between "Make Ready" and "Range is Clear", only official range commands or safety stuff are to be used. If there were Make Ready/Range is Clear sequences for each box, then there is no rule against it but it was pretty lame, IMHO... Edited May 2, 2016 by ChuckS

[Gooldylocks]

What was the exact instance that this happened? Issuing a stacking call is a tough go, because you have to be absolutely sure of what is happening. Only place that stacking is addressed in the rulebook to my knowledge is 9.4.5.3:

"stacked shots (i.e. obviously shooting more than the required rounds on a target(s) while shooting other target(s) with fewer shots than specified in any string), will incur one procedural penalty per target insufficiently engaged in any string. This penalty will not be applied if the written stage briefing specifically authorizes stack shots."

Unless the RO can see exactly where you are aiming and how many times you shoot at each target, they can't call it. Because it has to be "obvious."

Did you shoot at one target extra tines and another target fewer times?

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[Gooldylocks]

So at Area 6 on stage 10 there were two strings and two boxes. After shooting one string I began to move to the next box and was stopped by the RO because he was penalizing me for an extra hit, he quickly clarified "stacking". It was a disastrous moment trying to process what he was saying and making an effort to repair what I had done. Keep in mind he could only clearly see just a few targets. In theory, I could have had several penalties that he could not see until I had truly finished and he walked down range.

The match was awesome.. this is not a complaint but a question. Should or can RO's do this? Are there any rules that could help give clarity?

After imploding and zeroing the stage I questioned him and his explanation was respectful but basically there is nothing in the handbook that keeps him from doing what he did. We left amicably and I have no hard feelings.

I'm looking but so far I've found nothing.

If he said that before he said, "Range is Clear", he blew it. Between "Make Ready" and "Range is Clear", only official range commands or safety stuff are to be used.

He shouldn't say anything aloud, but extra shots are scored at the firing line, before you leave to go down range and score the targets.

[sclagg]

I had shot one target twice when it should have only one hole at the time moving to the next string.. it was one of the closer targets.

One target was skipped by accident and had zero hits.

Stacking was prohibited on this stage.. by the way.

Edited May 2, 2016 by sclagg

[ChuckS]

I had shot one target twice when it should have only one hole at the time moving to the next string.. it was one of the closer targets.

When did he say "Range is Clear"? At each box or the end of the stage?

[sclagg]

Sorry.. I don't remember what he said at the end of the first string.

Edited May 2, 2016 by sclagg

[George Jones]

Per Rule 9.4.5.3, stacking can and should be called after each string (unless stacking is specifically allowed).

The RO was correct in making the call. Since the shooter was most likely not unloaded between shooting boxes, the "Range is Clear" command was not appropriate (or even relevant) in the call.

The rules are silent on whether the call should be announced after each string, however.

HTH

Edited May 2, 2016 by George Jones

[sclagg]

Thanks George!

I fully understand taking note of my hits.. it was him addressing me between strings that through me for a loop.

I've never seen that done and still don't see that it is addressed in the rules.

Appreciate the clarity.

Edited May 2, 2016 by sclagg

[ChuckS]

Thanks George!

I fully understand taking note of my hits.. it was him addressing me between strings that through me for a loop.

I've never seen that done and still don't see that it is addressed in the rules.

Appreciate the clarity.

And this is what I was trying to talk about: not the correctness of calling a stacked shot, but the fact that the RO may have departed from the official USPSA range commands by talking to the shooter about the shot during the COF. That is why I asked if the RO had said "Range is Clear".

[George Jones]

I understand and certainly agree on not deviating from the range commands until "Range is Clear" or something important (a safety issue) happens which requires a deviation.

Again, the rules are silent on when the call should be announced.

As a matter of good technique, it is best not to make an audible call. Unless it is done to all shooter equally, it can help or hinder some shooters (as may have been the case here). A form of coaching or interference.

However, it is important that the timer RO and the scorekeeper RO have some method of keeping track of these penalties if they are not announced until "RIC" so that they are not forgotten or confused. This is something which they should work out in advance if they suspect that stacking may be attempted. I suspect they did not consider that possibility and made the call simply because the penalty was not really expected. The RO should be commented for noticing it. Many might not.

[AWLAZS]

After shooting one string I began to move to the next box and was stopped by the RO because he was penalizing me for an extra hit, he quickly clarified "stacking".

You were walking to the next box and he held you back while he recorded the penalties? Did you ask for a reason why or did he just tell you? I normally wait for the ro to tell me to move to the next box on stages like that.

[d_striker]

So on a Virginia count stage, choosing to make up a shot is considered stacking?

This would mean a penalty for the extra shot, one for an extra hit if there is one, plus one for stacking?

Edited May 2, 2016 by d_striker

[ktm300]

I had a brain fart and shot the targets in the wrong order and stacked a shot on my first string as well. After the first string the RO said I was stacking and went so far as to go look at the target to be sure. By him telling me I had the chance to save myself some penalty points. If I had shot that target again it would have been an extra hit. It probably took me 3 or 4 minutes to get ready to shoot the 2nd string while trying to figure out a way to save as many points as possible. They were pretty cool about the extra time and answering my questions.

We were between strings so I did not consider it RO interference but I can see the argument.

By definition we are still in the course of fire. It starts here:

8.3.1 “Make Ready” – This command signifies the start of “the Course of Fire”.

and ends here:

8.3.8 “Range Is Clear” – This declaration signifies the end of the Course of fire. Once the declaration is made, officials and competitors may move forward to score, patch, reset targets etc.

But we may issue interim commands to get the shooter ready for another string etc.

8.3.6.1 When conducting Standard Exercises, Range Officials may issue other interim commands on completion of the first string, in order to prepare the competitor for the second and subsequent strings. (e.g. “Reload if required and holster”). This option may also be applied when two or more courses of fire share a common shooting bay or area.

So this rule seems to be in effect:

8.6.1 No assistance of any kind can be given to a competitor during a course of fire, except that any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue safety warnings to a competitor at any time. Such warnings will not be grounds for the competitor to be awarded a reshoot.

For me it was assistance for him to tell me I had stacked a shot.

For you this seems to come into play:

8.6.4 In the event that inadvertent contact from the Range Officer or another external influence has interfered with the competitor during a course of fire, the Range Officer may offer the competitor a reshoot of the course of fire.

Pretty interesting, As the RO I think he should have just noted the stacked shots and kept running the shooter. As it played out it hurt you and helped me. Both results are not good.

[Sarge]

I agree the RO should have been quiet and not get inside the shooters head prior to finishing the stage.

[teros135]

Also agreed. It's the RO's job to run the shooter and basically stay out of his/her way as much as possible. Can't coach, even when noticing that you didn't insert a mag or did insert the mag but forgot to rack the slide (ask me how I know ).

I've been in situations in which the RO added "conversation" of various forms during the COF. It really breaks concentration and alters my performance. Especially if I've screwed up, which is my responsibility anyway, not his/hers. We usually find out about the screw-ups after RIC, and we simply learn from them.

[High Lord Gomer]

So on a Virginia count stage, choosing to make up a shot is considered stacking?

This would mean a penalty for the extra shot, one for an extra hit if there is one, plus one for stacking?

While it doesn't explicitly state it in the rules, stacking only applies when you have targets that must be addressed in separate strings and when you put extra shots on one target and too few on another. It also does not only apply to Virginia count stages.

If the stage description said, "Virginia Count. String 1: From Box A engage T1-T3 with exactly one round each. String 2: From Box B engage T1-T3 with exactly one round each"

1. If you shot 1-2-1 in string one....Extra Shot (extra hits, if there, get called after the shooting is over)

2. if you shot 1-2-0 in string one....Stacking (extra hits, if there, ....)

If the stage description said, "Comstock. String 1: From Box A engage T1-T3 with at least two rounds each. String 2: From Box B engage T1-T3 with at least two rounds each"

(could be the case when T1 is a difficult shot from Box B and T3 is difficult from Box A)

1. If you shot 4-2-0 in string one that would earn a stacking penalty (with the implication that you did it so you could shoot 0-2-4 on string two).

2. If you shot 4-2-2 in string one and 2-2-2 in string two, no penalty.

3. If you shot 4-2-2 in string one and 0-2-2 in string two, one penalty for not following the WSB.

[ktm300]

This stage was 2 10 round strings with 10 targets.

1st string 5 freestyle, 5 strong hand

2nd string 5 freestyle, 5 weak hand

I put 2 in a target in string 1.

Not an extra shot as I only fired 10

Not an extra hit at this point but if I hit it 1 more time it is

Stacking because no target should have two hits before string 2

Funny sitting there trying to figure out the best way to resolve the situation with the least number of penalties was fun standing on the line.

I can only fire 10 shots, I can't stack 2 on one target or I get another stacking penalty, I can't get a hit on the original target that I stacked on or I get a extra hit penalty.

I ended up firing 10 shots but intentionally taking a miss on the farthest target that did not get any holes in it on string 1. The hit factor was in the low 2's but it could have been a lot worse.

[frgood]

So on a Virginia count stage, choosing to make up a shot is considered stacking?

This would mean a penalty for the extra shot, one for an extra hit if there is one, plus one for stacking?

While it doesn't explicitly state it in the rules, stacking only applies when you have targets that must be addressed in separate strings and when you put extra shots on one target and too few on another. It also does not only apply to Virginia count stages.

If the stage description said, "Virginia Count. String 1: From Box A engage T1-T3 with exactly one round each. String 2: From Box B engage T1-T3 with exactly one round each"

1. If you shot 1-2-1 in string one....Extra Shot (extra hits, if there, get called after the shooting is over)

2. if you shot 1-2-0 in string one....Stacking (extra hits, if there, ....)

If the stage description said, "Comstock. String 1: From Box A engage T1-T3 with at least two rounds each. String 2: From Box B engage T1-T3 with at least two rounds each"

(could be the case when T1 is a difficult shot from Box B and T3 is difficult from Box A)

1. If you shot 4-2-0 in string one that would earn a stacking penalty (with the implication that you did it so you could shoot 0-2-4 on string two).

2. If you shot 4-2-2 in string one and 2-2-2 in string two, no penalty.

3. If you shot 4-2-2 in string one and 0-2-2 in string two, one penalty for not following the WSB.

I am trying to understand 'stacking' before I get to the appropriate or inappropriate aspect.

Does 9.4.5.3 seek to prevent a deliberate attempt to take easier shots (albeit out of order) than the prescribed WSB? in other words, RO cannot call 9.4.5.3 until the second string is fired?

In an attempt to defeat the RO who is only counting shots fired and not watching?

In the example above a total of 6 shots are to be fired.

The RO simply counts 3 shots fired on string 1

Then counts 3 shots on string 2

The RO soe not see 'stacking' because they are unaware the shooter shot 2 on T-1 and 1 on T2 then shot 1 on T2 and 2 on T3?

Is this stacking? Is the rule describing an act of intent. As opposed to misses and not following the WSB. I tend to cringe when I hear FTDR at USPSA matches.

[ktm300]

On the A6 stage it was pretty simple to call stacking. If there were 2 shots on any target after string 1 you were stacking if you intended to stack or not.

In his example it would also be simple. If there are shots on a target that should not have shots on it after the first string you have a couple of ways to go. Not following the written stage brief or stacking.

[Gooldylocks]

On the A6 stage it was pretty simple to call stacking. If there were 2 shots on any target after string 1 you were stacking if you intended to stack or not.

In his example it would also be simple. If there are shots on a target that should not have shots on it after the first string you have a couple of ways to go. Not following the written stage brief or stacking.

That's not correct though. You could have been firing a makeup shot, because while it still penalizes you for extra shots, you can still do it. For example you call a mike and shoot again, if you get the alpha then you are only getting a 5 point penalty (10 for extra shot - 5 for an alpha).

Stacking isn't stacking unless you shoot some targets extra times and some targets not enough times.

And the reason I said at the beginning of this thread that you have to be 100% certain if you are going to call stacking is because it gets a little subjective. How do you know I didn't just jerk that shot and get a miss on 1 target and an extra hit on another? Can you articulate that and put up a convincing argument when I arbitrate the call?

[ktm300]

On the A6 stage it was pretty simple to call stacking. If there were 2 shots on any target after string 1 you were stacking if you intended to stack or not.

In his example it would also be simple. If there are shots on a target that should not have shots on it after the first string you have a couple of ways to go. Not following the written stage brief or stacking.

That's not correct though. You could have been firing a makeup shot, because while it still penalizes you for extra shots, you can still do it. For example you call a mike and shoot again, if you get the alpha then you are only getting a 5 point penalty (10 for extra shot - 5 for an alpha).

Stacking isn't stacking unless you shoot some targets extra times and some targets not enough times.

And the reason I said at the beginning of this thread that you have to be 100% certain if you are going to call stacking is because it gets a little subjective. How do you know I didn't just jerk that shot and get a miss on 1 target and an extra hit on another? Can you articulate that and put up a convincing argument when I arbitrate the call?

A makeup shot will be an extra shot, if that makeup shot hits a target and you end up with an extra hit you will get that penalty as well. In that case I would not call stacking as you should not get a penalty for both and extra hit and stacking.

If you end up with 2 hits on any of the paper targets (and have not fired an extra shot) after string 1 you are stacking. If you want to call it a miss the penalty is the same so go ahead.

I watch the gun. If in this stage you jerked it enough to put it in another target I would know. In that case you would just get the miss.

Nobody said running standards stages was easy.

[StealthyBlagga]

Reason #463 why Virginia Count should be deep sixed.

I don't like everything IPSC does, but going to Comstock-only scoring was a smart move.

Edited May 2, 2016 by StealthyBlagga

[ktm300]

Reason #463 why Virginia Count should be deep sixed.

I don't like everything IPSC does, but going to Comstock-only scoring was a smart move.

We can agree on that

[ATLDave]

FWIW, a competitor on my squad on that stage also had stacking penalties called between strings. Right or wrong, it appears they were administering it consistently for all shooters.