223 loaded with Titegroup

[Tmcfarland]

So i was looking for some data on Hodgdon website for the 223 the other day and noticed that they publish a subsonic load with titegroup. (3.1 grains for 1,064 fps at 4,000 CUP)

Here is the question...

Has anyone worked up from that point to get the velocity up around where it should be for a normal load?

The pressure seems very low at the published load but not aware of how much and how fast it will spike when you increase the powder charge. I know that there is no conversion between PSI and CUP readings but, I have noticed other powders using the CUP measure and reaching 50,000 CUP. (Benchmark at 25.6 grains for 3264 fps at 50,000 CUP)

Pretty curious if anyone has worked up a reliable load with this powder or if there is something that is crazy wrong with my thinking haha? Cause 1500 to 1700 loads for 223 out of a pound of powder is way better than 250 to 300.

Edited April 23, 2016 by Tmcfarland

[redial]

Titegroup (and most other fast pistol powders) will reach max pressures long before you reach a "normal" rifle velocity.

The idea in using Titegroup for subsonic, presumably suppressed loads is to minimize the gas volume while generating sufficient pressure for stable, repeatable ballistics.

Use rifle powders for rifle velocities.

Mark

[Tmcfarland]

Thanks Mark, that makes sense.

[Flatland Shooter]

What would you need to do to make the gun cycle with that load?

Or would it be basically a single shot rifle with a suppressor?

[jkrispies]

I'm wondering if this load was developed with the intention of shooting it out of an AR pitol/SBR with a very short barrel?

[Tmcfarland]

I have read some posts on other forums about this load, it will not cycle an AR, built to shoot on a bolt gun. I am sure you could get it to cycle if you worked it up but like Mark said it will be hard to get enough gas built up before it peaks. It would still be cool to get 1500 rounds out of a pound though.

[BrianKr]

Mark got it right, subsonic and not normal 5.56/.223 velocity.

Sure it could be fired out of an SBR or handgun, but it'll never reach much above subsonic and be safe. Can it be fired out of an AR? Maybe.

The problem with subsonic loads in an AR is the gas port in the barrel. I like my subsonic loads to use a heavy bullet for the AR. We're not dealing with much pressure when using fast powder in the 5.56/.223 when the bullet reaches the gas port. After that the bullet basically coasts. If too little velocity is attained or the bullet is too light the bullet doesn't exit the barrel and the pressure can be heard to FFZZZZZ as it leaks out the port. So to counteract this I tell folks to do exactly the opposite of what is suggested when loading. Oh, and you had better know what you're doing. That was a warning. I suggest that they start slightly higher, into the super sonic range and work down. You'll hear it (or not hear it) when you go subsonic. You also won't experience lodged bullets in the barrel. Of course with guns having a gas port near the muzzle, or entirely absent, that possibility is greatly reduced or eliminated.

I also don't like using really fast powder. I dislike pressure spikes. I think my subsonic AR load used Green Dot and i know it used a Sierra 70 gr. and required 1:7 twist. It was a tackdriver out to 75 yards but with a rainbow trajectory. At 100 yards the bullets are keyholing and groups were around 4" if I remember correctly. That was many years ago that I did that work and some of it is sharp and some is fuzzy. I know the 100 yard group was terrible because the bullet has destabilized.

In guns w/o a gas port I use lightweight bullets for subsonic .223. Can one use light bullets in subsonic AR loadings? Probably, but I won't. I've experienced enough lodged bullets and they aren't fun.

Can a subsonic .223 be achieved that will cycle a 5.56 AR? Maybe if one could load a 150-200 grain bullet. You'd need to use a powder slow enough, and enough of it to allow sufficient pressure at the gas port, and a bullet heavy enough to act as a cork, to again, allow the pressure. There is a .223 based cartridge that does this, it's called the .300 Whisper. It's a .223 necked up to .30 to get the bullet weight required. There is another cartridge, basically a stolen version of the .300 Whisper that does the same thing. Is it the .300 Blackout? Maybe, I forget. But it's a cartridge designed for the AR to cycle, be accurate and be subsonic. It'll still have a rainbow trajectory. There's no way around that with a subsonic bullet.

[redial]

Holy smoke - I was right once? Would you guys mind calling Mrs Riedl on my behalf? I'll make it worth your while!

FWIW, I use Red Dot, Blue Dot, 4756, and others in ammo I'll shoot through a can BUT it's strictly for bolt guns. No hope of cycling an AR with such loads. An easy rule of thumb is that no powder faster than 4198 is going to cycle an AR, regardless of load.

Mark

[Ole Sniper]

On ‎4‎/‎24‎/‎2016 at 0:44 AM, Tmcfarland said:

I have read some posts on other forums about this load, it will not cycle an AR, built to shoot on a bolt gun. I am sure you could get it to cycle if you worked it up but like Mark said it will be hard to get enough gas built up before it peaks. It would still be cool to get 1500 rounds out of a pound though.

For what it's worth, I took on the feat of building .223 subs to cycle an AR type pistol and here is what works for me:

71/2" AR, Pistol gas barrel (7 twist) with the gas port drilled to .114".  Light buffer spring (NEMO) and a Form 1 suppressor.  The load that works great is a 75 gr. Hornady BTHP loaded over Trailboss powder.  I can't remember the exact load amount, but around 5.4g or so.  I chrono them at 1050 fps with good accuracy at 50 yds.  Just a hoot to shoot and nice and quiet.  It will also cycle well with 65 gr. Sierra GK with a 5.2 gr, charge of Trailboss. 

Now, I have tried them in a 9 twist bolt action rifle, super quiet with the suppressor,  but the 75 gr. Hornady's hit the target sideways, will NOT stabilize  in the 9 twist barrel.  Henceforth, I shoot either 63 gr. Sierra SMP or the 65 gr. GK and they are 1" at 50 yds.

I hope this helps.

Edited November 13, 2016 by Ole Sniper

[RangerTrace]

A friend of mine loads subsonic .308 with Clays.  They won't cycle my Larue, but they are scary quiet.....

[Smokecloud]

TG has gained popularity because of its ability to not be position sensitive.  Small amounts of most powders will usually provide huge pressure spikes because of a flashover inside the case.  Probably not the best explanation, but TG almost seems impervious to this, so it has gained ground as a subsonic powder.  I personally have not migrated to using it yet though.  For my 308 bolt gun,I prefer to make my sub rounds out of trailboss, which is  very bulky and provides a much better case fill.  I don't mess with subsonic 223, its a waste of time for me to try to turn my 223/556 into a .22LR-    I already have .22's with suppressors that don't have behavior problems.  .223 bullets do not perform well on critters under 2k fps either, so a subsonic 223 is a horrible choice for shooting critters with.  a .22LR is designed to perform at that velocity and is much more effective at putting down varmints at 1k fps.  For my 300blk, I prefer 1680 for the sub rounds, but have successfully made sub rounds that cycle reliably with several other powders as long as the suppressor is attached. 

[Ole Sniper]

To Smokecloud,

I have experimented with Tightgroup in .308 in a bolt gun and find 8.8 grains behind a 175 SMK is a great quiet round.  I did notice that there is soot around the case mouth caused from not getting a great seal upon firing.  But me and friends have a boot at the range shooting steel plates at 100 yds. thru suppressed bolt guns.  I prefer Trailboss but like experimenting with other powder / bullet combos!

[Js55]

I just worked up a load using  thighgroup with a 55gr fmj I used 3.2 gr of powder my crono gives me anywhere from 1050 to 1080 I’m waiting on some 77gr bullets to play with them some.

[wgj3]

Reviving an old one here too...

 

Why not try some the 80-90gr bullets that are coming out for the Valkyrie, etc.?

[Dan Sierpina]

7 hours ago, wgj3 said:

Reviving an old one here too...

 

Why not try some the 80-90gr bullets that are coming out for the Valkyrie, etc.?

They most likely won't stabilize without a 6 1/2" twist.

 

[Encore5555]

I shoot 4.2 grains of tightgroup in my AR....but love it in my TCs for squirrels with fmjs and headshots

[FlightMurse]

I have messed around with TG for subsonic loads, mostly using speer TNT's. I would highly recommend going to trail boss instead, way less room for error.