EdGI Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 When Im shooting on the bern, I was able to see the sight lift in recoil clearly( maybe because im not trying hit anything). But shooting on a target at 10 yards, my eyes seems to focus more on the target during recoil . Peripherally I saw the front sight lift but kind a blurr while my eyes stayed focus on the spot of the target. Am I doing it right or the other way? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRG65 Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 Ed It sound like you are using type 2 focus on your 10 yard targets. If you are getting good hits then in my opinion you're not doing anything wrong. If you don't have our host's excellent book, in two words....buy it. The discussion about sight focus starts on page 62. Because I don't like missing the A zone I start using type 3 focus in 10-15 yard range, inside 10 type 1 or 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 For developmental purposes, when I am working on calling shots and really watching to see the timing of the pistol (like when trying a new load) I use a fairly "hard" sight focus. I direct my attention and vision to the front sight and I see the target in the background. What a person should be seeing is the relationship of the front sight to the rear sight and where they reside on the target face. The target doesn't need to be in sharp focus. When the shot is fired, you need to watch the front sight lift out of the notch, watch the movement of the sight during recoil, watch how the sight settles back into the notch, and if everything is neutral, the sight will settle back to the same place on the target face. It is important not to direct your visual attention away from the sight during this activity. Now, having said all of that, things change depending on the difficulty of the shot and what you actually see in a match will change as you switch from one type of sight focus to the next. I don't use a type two focus at ten yards, but I hear some people can. While you are waiting for your copy of the book to be delivered, there is some good information in this thread: http://www.brianenos.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard...42&topic=13 (Edited by Ron Ankeny at 9:58 pm on Feb. 26, 2003) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 Ditto to Ron, buy BE's book, money well spent At 10 yards I generally use the following sequence shooting limited sights: 1. Aquire target in vision 2. Find a spot I want to shoot 3. Focus on that exact spot 4. Watch the sights come into my vision 5. Focus on the front site 6. As the rear notch comes into place, break the shot 7. Watch the shot break 8. Break the next shot as the sight returns in the rear sight 9. Watch the shot break 10. Find the next target or shooting position. You might find that your shooting gets better if you practice transitioning your vision from target to sight your brain remembers where the target is, you have to see the sights clearly to call the shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 Quote: from EdGI on 6:48 pm on Feb. 26, 2003 When Im shooting on the bern, I was able to see the sight lift in recoil clearly( maybe because im not trying hit anything). But shooting on a target at 10 yards, my eyes seems to focus more on the target during recoil . Peripherally I saw the front sight lift but kind a blurr while my eyes stayed focus on the spot of the target. Am I doing it right or the other way? Thanks. The right way for you is whatever gives you the best scores. I target focus nearly 100% of the time with my eye muscles but I have a trick lense in the sighting eye so I also see a near perfect sight picture at the same time. Try evrything until you find what lets you see the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdGI Posted February 27, 2003 Author Share Posted February 27, 2003 Thanks for all the replies, I have BE 's book, I think I need to read it again for the third times. I figured it out after reading all your posts, must be the confidence were not there yet. It seems that I'm trying to verify each shots so I stayed focus on the target during recoil even though the rear/front sight and target was perfectly aligned. Thanks. (Edited by EdGI at 5:48 pm on Feb. 27, 2003) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDean Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 Ed, your not alone. At 10yds I only see the fuzzy outline of the sights. I only concentrate on the front sight when I need to close one eye on more difficult shots. I don't think this is the most accurate way to shoot, but my quest for speed dictates it. I do know that I need to work on visual patience (seeing the perfect sight picture when pressing the trigger), but just thinking about that slows me down.....I think? MAybe I'm thinking too much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 When I am shooting consistant...my eyes are on the front sight. When I shoot with a target focus, I may be somewhat faster at times (may not)...but, I will trash a stage or two every so often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 TDean, Just a thought for you to ponder. If you are questing for speed, the quickest thing our body has is the eyes. I would recommend that if you want true speed, the only way to get there is through faster sight, and getting used to know what sight picture is adequate for each shot. What people "feel" as speed is generally chaos. The mind isn't focused, images are blurry, thus the mind says it is fast, when in reallity is doesn't really mean what you are is doing is really fast, just chaotic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDean Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 Flex, that sounds an awful lot like my shooting L2S, I think what I do is snap-focus to the target, then look for the fuzzy vertical symmetry of the sights + equal light on both sides. My focus rarely switches to the front post after I've locked on a target, actually I think my focus would be somewhere in between the target and sights....nothing is sharp for my typical sight picture. For plates or other more focus-intensive-targets, I will see a sharper image of the front post against the blurry target. My current dilema is not knowing when to apply the more intensive focus. Example: running by targets at 5yds with only the A-zone scorable. Since these targets are so close, my instinct is to fuzzy-bang'em. I need to develop the visual patience to call my shots on these type of targets. The fact that my eyes are quicker than my body is killing me! Visual patience...visual patience....visual patience..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 TDean, Visual patience is correct. You might want to try this, if you are not getting all A's on those close targets that you want to hose. Time/score yourself using a close array of targets and find out which focus level give you the most consistant and highest hit factor. Then you will be confident of how to shoot them. Personally I find the better the front sight focus, the more relaxed I am, and the faster my splits. I am trying to be visually patient and my scores are skyrocketing when I am able to keep the visual focus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 Somebody here posted a dryfire drill that helped me out quite a bit. I use it whenever I dryfire now (not often enough). 1. Snap the eyes to the target. 2. Bring the gun to the target. 3. As the gun comes on target change the focus point to the front sight. Sharp focus on the front sight 4. Repeat. This is a constant back and forth with the focal point. A near/far see-saw. I think it is one of the big things that seperates the Limited shooter from the Open shooter. Those with a dot can always focus on the target, the dot is there. As a Limited shooter I need to pull my focus back to the front sight for many (most?) shots. If I could test this out a bit more...in live-fire, I am probably prepping the trigger, releasing the shot as the front sight comes into sharp focus. This extra bit of visual patience helps me to call the shot. It allows me to learn what I can get away with. It also keeps me out of shooting a rhythm. With practice, I don't think this takes much more...if any...extra time. I might state the difference as shooting 95% and knowing the hits are there, versus shooting 100% and not knowing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDean Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 "..Time/score yourself using a close array of targets and find out which focus level give you the most consistant and highest hit factor. Then you will be confident of how to shoot them...." EXACTLY! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 Loves2Shoot is right on when he said, "...and getting used to know what sight picture is adequate for each shot." See what you need to see to make the shot, nothing more or time is wasting. On close targets all I need to see is the relationship of the sights to one another and where they are in relationship to the scoring surface. The sights need not be sharp and they certainly don't need to be in perfect alignment. Anything more (for me) is overaiming and way to slow. With my dot it seems like I need to see the dot in the middle of the A zone before I let it rip. I guess that's why I am one of those guys who shoots a Limited pistol better than a dot gun up close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 All good posts, but Flex's last post with the 4-step plan really summed it up nicely. I think the natural tendency is to look at the target. But often, once the gun is aimed at the target, we'll get more consistent results if we train ourselves to look right at the front sight until it lifts. For most shots, your body-mind has all the information it needs by knowing exactly where the gun is pointed when the front site is seen in clear focus, with the target silhouetted (peripherally) behind it. Then it can fire the shot without hesitation. This no fixed rule. Keep your mind moving. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 Brian: I just have to ask. On the really close targets do you still look for a perfect sight picture with focus on the front sight? I was doing that, but it seemed so slowwww. I now use a very "soft" sight picture and my times are a whole lot faster. I am finally to a point where my transitions on close yardage targets are very near to my splits. Should I now work on bringing the front sight back into clear focus? Am I unknowingly building a bad habit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 Ron, Just a mere mortals thought in this in doing some change of focus training, going from target focus to front sight focus. I find that my splits when I focus on my front sight clear picture in speed drills not only sped up my splits, but also the transitions. I think that when the eyes cue the finger to pull the trigger, it is faster than trying to just pull it fast. That is my guess anyway because that is when I get the faster splits/transitions. My splits are very consistant (.15 @ 7 yards), be it 1 round or 10 rounds, if I keep a clear sight focus, they vary between .14-.19 if I don't have clear focus. This last weekend I had a stage where I saw my second shot on a target as a D hit and in an instant I decided to make it up. I had such a clear picture that people thought I threw a triple tap but in my head it was slow. It seems weird to me because it is a new thing for me, but it seems if you get it down it is very fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 In thinking about this thread it occurs to me that my shooting background is perhaps substantially different than that of most IPSC shooters. Maybe what I consider a "hard" sight picture is way different than what most IPSC shooters would think. A hard sight picture (to me) is what I used to see when I shot PPC at the 50 yard line. My eyes were welded right to the front sight, which was absolutely level with the rear sight. The front sight would be centered as best as humanly possible and the round was triggered with vision and the brain. The trigger finger was just along for the ride. When I started IPSC I had a habit of overaiming and I have been trying to break that habit for two years. When targets are in close, I need to turn my vision way down or I take too much time. It's hard to explain, but I suppose if I see the relationship of the sights to each other, where they are in relation to the target face, and can call the shots with certainty...well I guess that's a good place to start. For that matter, it's a good place to arrive, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 That makes sense Ron, I don't even really worry about the rear sight, I have enough experience I never ever focus on the relatationship of the front and rear sights. Lots of practice makes it an automatic thing I guess. If I can get a good clear focus on the front sight I know I will hit what I want it will be fast enough if I break the shot the instant it is in the notch. I see what you mean by overaiming, that can be a tough one. I only really got faster with a limited gun when I was able to keep front sight focus and break the shot as soon as it hit the notch. That was the thing that made it for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDean Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 Hmmm...It seems we all see things differently. I rarely see the sights as clear, but always see them (front and rear) aligned to the target...however blurry they may be....the relation of the front post to rear sight is paramount with my strange style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdGI Posted March 5, 2003 Author Share Posted March 5, 2003 Wow! Different formulas with the same results. I wonder how TGO able to hit fast and accurately without aquiring clear sight focus, NPA must be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 EdGI, There is no doubt in my mind that a good index is vital. I true believe the top dogs have a superior index. They can present the gun and it is already on target...no muscling it into the A-zone. The best can do this at greater and greater distances. -------------------- I'll bet that everybody that has posted on this thread could show up at a local match without any sightsd on their gun and still place at the top. Being able to know where the shot went by reading the gun is an advantage though. I think there might be different levels of "knowing". We can know from experience...we can know from a hard read of the sights...we can know from "seeing what we need to see"...and, we can know from instinct. I guess all of that needs to be in the bag of tricks at some point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 Ron, The most important thing to remember is that there is no fixed rule. As humans, we typically believe, and spend much time searching for, what we think will be the ultimate answer. It's always a little of both. The goal of (IPSC) shooting is to hit each target as quickly as possible. What you need to see to know you hit an A box at 5 yds us quite different than what you need to see to hit an A box at 50. Don't try to always see the same one thing. I have found, however, as LTS described, that if I get my focus back on the sights as the gun is landing on the target, on most all targets I shoot more quickly, more confidently, and with much less strain and effort than if I stayed riveted on the target. This is because your body-mind can see exactly where the gun is pointed when it is looking at it. When your body-mind is focused on the target, however, it can only see approximately where the gun is pointed. From your background it's obvious you know what it means to call the shot. Now you just need to learn to do it more quickly. This requires you to add a notch or two of "abandon" to your typical shooting style, IF, you've programmed yourself to see that perfect sight picture before you trigger the gun. That's probably why it feels and is slower for you. Because you don't shoot until you see a textbook sight alignment. You can be looking right at the sights and seeing a crappy sight alignment, textbook wise, but still have enough information, visually, to know you are hitting the target. Think about that last (poorly written) sentence. Re-read the "control/abandon" article on my expanded words page. Really work with it. Set up a target at 7 yds and tell yourself you are going to shoot 6 shots onto the target (anywhere) while looking RIGHT AT THE GUN. You're not going to try anything, or hurry at all. Just relax and let the gun shoot, driven by what you see by looking right at those sights bouncing up and down. Just cut loose. Eventually it will happen for you. You'll realize that looking at the sights doesn't necessarily mean you are looking for a perfect sight picture. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
talon Posted March 8, 2003 Share Posted March 8, 2003 How common is it for folks to see both the target and the front sight in sharp focus at the same time ? One eye focused on the target and the other on the front sight ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted March 8, 2003 Share Posted March 8, 2003 Quote: from talon on 10:42 pm on Mar. 7, 2003 How common is it for folks to see both the target and the front sight in sharp focus at the same time ? One eye focused on the target and the other on the front sight ? Near as I can tell, I'm the only one and it is only possible through the magic of optics. I am nearsighted and have a full distance prescription in my left (target eye) lense and an "intermediate scrip in my right (sight) eye. I also use a Merit sighter to clarify the right eye so I see both the sights and target pretty clear with my eyes relaxed at "distant" focus. So with both eyes relaxed to distance focus, I see a clear target in the left eye and a clear sight picture in the right eye which appears superimposd over the target image. I shot with one-eye closed, focuse the dominant eye on the front sight for most of my life but using both eyes gives me better scores and I just seem to know where the center of the black on the target is betterwith more accuracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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