jdlincoln Posted April 3, 2016 Share Posted April 3, 2016 I had an issue recently with my 147gr Bayou loads. (been using them for years) When cycling thru the FC die, they would fall apart exiting the die, creating, as you know, a mess in the loaded round catch box. Huh? I checked the bullets and found the bases to be undersized to .351-.352. I initially thought I had a bad batch of bullets until I checked the bullet bases before and after the crimp die. No bullet problem before, just after. I then found some bullets being "pulled" by the FC die. I removed and disassembled/cleaned the die. No improvement. Is it possible to wear out a carbide die like this? It's the only thing that comes to my mind so I ordered a new one. Should be here end of the week. I do seat in a seperate die. Press is a Hornady L&L AP not that it should matter. JD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowenbuilt Posted April 3, 2016 Share Posted April 3, 2016 Have you been using the FCD the whole time or was it a recent addition to your press? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CZ85Combat Posted April 3, 2016 Share Posted April 3, 2016 change to a taper crimp die instead of a FC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1gcountry Posted April 4, 2016 Share Posted April 4, 2016 Sounds like it is set too aggressively. .. Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDescribe Posted April 4, 2016 Share Posted April 4, 2016 The FCD fixes problems that shouldn't exist to begin with if the rest of your process is sound, and it can cause problems where there are none, as you have discovered. Ditch it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wimms Posted April 4, 2016 Share Posted April 4, 2016 get this: http://leeprecision.com/cmp-sleeve-9mm-mak.html and don't run your FCD deeper than bullet seat depth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
earthshine402 Posted April 4, 2016 Share Posted April 4, 2016 don't run the FCD with coated bullets - what you are seeing here is the bullet is being swaged down smaller and not "bouncing" back like brass does.I prefer regular crimp dies- Dillon seat, Dillon crimp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdlincoln Posted April 4, 2016 Author Share Posted April 4, 2016 Thanks guys for the suggestions. I've been using the FC die for years with the same 9mm Bayous without any issues. wimms, that's a Markorov insert isn't it. why would that be a help? JD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1gcountry Posted April 4, 2016 Share Posted April 4, 2016 The problems that arise with the fcd happen when it is adjusted too aggressively. If you over crimp with the fcd bad things start to happen. I also cull my cbc brass as I stated in another post. The thicker brass causes the bullets to swage a little even on a properly adjusted die. Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miranda Posted April 4, 2016 Share Posted April 4, 2016 take a look at these two different dies. FCD... http://leeprecision.com/reloading-dies/hand-gun-dies/lee-carbide-factory-crimp-die/ taper crimp http://leeprecision.com/reloading-dies/hand-gun-dies/taper-crimp-die/ the taper crimp will not swage your lead bullets. you could tale my word for this; ( all these are using my dial calipers and mark I eyeball ) my 9mm FDC sizes the case mouth at .377-.378 with jacketed bullets. never bigger than .378. I measured a bunch of 9mm case walls at .011 and a little less to .012 and never more. most measure out at a guesstimated .0114 and jacketed bullets are usually .355 with little variation. so .355 plus .022 is .377 AND .355 plus .024 is .379 bored yet? same cases and a .356 lead bullet... .356 plus .022 is .378 AND .356 plus .024 is .380 saami specs case mouth at .380. you can hunt thinner walls for your cases and the FDC might not swage your bullet. it is very likely to swage them if you have thick case walls. it is far better to use the taper crimp. I read somewhere that the FDC is not recommended for lead bullets and I can't find that instruction anymore. miranda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDescribe Posted April 4, 2016 Share Posted April 4, 2016 I've been using the FC die for years with the same 9mm Bayous without any issues. ... that stood out to you. It doesn't mean you wouldn't have produced ammo with better precision without. Use it if you like, but you shouldn't use it with lead or coated lead, and you don't need to use it with anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wimms Posted April 4, 2016 Share Posted April 4, 2016 Thanks guys for the suggestions. I've been using the FC die for years with the same 9mm Bayous without any issues. wimms, that's a Markorov insert isn't it. why would that be a help? JD It is true taper crimp insert with no roll-crimp "happy ending". It just closes the flare. This helps if you have to deal with variable brass height and frustrated eternally adjusting the crimp. It just happens so that Makarov insert fits 9mm FCD like home. In fact, I have found that the whole Makarov FCD is much better fit for 9mm luger. Its carbide ring is for Makarov case mouth at around .3904, and 9mm luger case base is speced at .3910, which makes it possible to use Makarov FCD for bulge fixing. It is not affecting case mouth nor bullet dimensions even with .358 bullets. Flare is closed only with the taper insert, and the neck tension is the task of the station 1 anyway. FCD was never intended to scrape the bullet seating area of the case to make it hold bullet tight. It is meant to shape the case mouth of loaded round to some upper tolerance of saami chamber spec. It seems that across all reloading press vendors there is a pervasive "work accident" in relation to 9mm luger - its lumped together with 38 auto and 38 super etc - the straight cases. And somehow 9mm luger is receiving undersized die. see that pic representing the FCD family: http://leeprecision.com/userfiles/images/38_FCD.jpg Notice how the carbide ring is dropped down to the very base of the round? Well, do that with 9mm luger and you f*#k up your round real bad, because its tapered and FCD carbide ring can only shape the case mouth area. For all the straight cased ammo yeah, full sizing. But not for luger. For luger FCD carbide ring should not go lower than the bullet base, even if that. miranda has a point. I can't remember what my exact resized case mouth dimensions were, but I remember it was tight and I was not happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandbagger123 Posted April 4, 2016 Share Posted April 4, 2016 (edited) i had this issue once when loading 158 in 9mm. i was stumped also. then i figured out it was just doing it on certain brand of brass. what it hink was happening is i was seating too deep a slightly compressed charge on thicker than usual brass. what powder and length are you using? Edited April 4, 2016 by Sandbagger123 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted April 5, 2016 Share Posted April 5, 2016 I added a 9mm FCD recently to my reloading. At the same time I added a new 9mm. I was chasing poor accuracy for quite some time. It finally dawned on me I made a change. I use coated bullets, It was swaging down the bullets. I threw away the FCD ordered a Lyman M die and taper crimp. The new gun shoots great now, big difference. Throw that die in the garbage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted April 5, 2016 Share Posted April 5, 2016 (edited) double tap Edited April 5, 2016 by zombywoof Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1gcountry Posted April 5, 2016 Share Posted April 5, 2016 (edited) Look at the fcd diagram. The carbide sizing ring is flared to accept the round. Now, if you adjust the die so that the flared sizing ring just barely contacts the rim of the case, what do you get? If you adjust a taper crimp die to crimp perfectly, what happens? Adjust both dies like above, and what are they doing that is different? Anything? Edited April 5, 2016 by b1gcountry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miranda Posted April 5, 2016 Share Posted April 5, 2016 uh, If you are thinking of tossing a FCD out , I'll pay the shipping for it. I have an idea for a powder check and I could use a spare die... :-D ummm back to the lead bullets for a bit. the .38 revolvers are close to 9mm... some one here recommended using a 38 special powder funnel from Lee. I would state that is does make the correct fit of the 'fat' bullets I use. I recall I had many adventures getting it to work reliably. Using the taper crimp was the fix for getting the lead bullets to seat firmly. FCD definitely swaged the lead bullets I like. and to answer b1gcountry's question... I was never able to get the 9mm FCD to give me an adjustment over .378. it is tight. I recall I removed the adjuster for at least one trial. I am going to hunt my few notes (like I took some)... and parts (more telling.) miranda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted April 5, 2016 Share Posted April 5, 2016 I've never had an issue with the FCD in 9mm or .40. It's all I ever used since it comes with the Lee die sets. Do people have issues with the FCD for .40 or is this just a 9mm issue due to the tapered case? I've loaded FMJ, plated, and coated lead with the FCD in 9mm and haven't noticed any issues at least, but I only use it because it came with the die set. I don't need it and would rather it just be a taper crimp die, but I love how easy the FCD is to adjust with the adjustment knob on the top. I hate messing with the lock rings; that's one of the reasons why I haven't replaced mine with a regular taper crimp die. get this: http://leeprecision.com/cmp-sleeve-9mm-mak.html and don't run your FCD deeper than bullet seat depth. That's the carbide sizing ring? Is it easy to swap them out? I've never taken the FCD apart. That is an interesting solution. Tempted to order, but since I'm not actually have any issues with my FCD I don't really want to pay $8 shipping for that little part I was never able to get the 9mm FCD to give me an adjustment over .378. With mine I can crimp to .380 or even larger I think. I have mine set to .379-.380 depending on the brass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miranda Posted April 5, 2016 Share Posted April 5, 2016 Hi southpaw, .... keep in mind we are discussing problems that appear in one thousand inch increments. when I run plated or jacketed the FCD is not a problem, I like the die. I also am reporting my results. I would like your FCD. It would solve a lot of my problems. When you assemble ammo from bullets that are .355 inches in diameter... the FCD is unlikely to swage the bullet even if it is as tight as mine. If you decide to run plain ole lead, you will very likely move up to .356 sized bullets... and then my FCD will swage, some times, from thick walled cases. Yours... not a problem. the op said... bullets fall apart exiting the die... ( Yikes!!! ) If he can get his FCD to crimp at .380 then his bullets will not fall apart. his bullets are being swaged when he seats them... because the expander funnel is not expanding the case enough... however, the FCD is crimping the case and bullet a bit also and that makes the bullet a bit loose... I am not disagreeing with you. honest. I do think you should to explain to the OP (and me 'cause I wanna know) how to adjust the FCD to get a .380 or larger crimp. I found the taper crimp allowed me the right crimp. Back to the 38 size powder funnel. I have three funnels and I an not sure which ones I ordered I have a 38 special funnel die and it is overall short and I have another expander the same diameter I am guessing is from a 38super funnel? this looks right --> http://leeprecision.com/pm-expand-plg-38-aut.html this die expands the case a bit more and the bullet seats without swaging. I recall I had to cut it on my mini lathe to get it to work in the 9mm die. lee custom? fun stuff. miranda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted April 5, 2016 Share Posted April 5, 2016 Hi Miranda, Sorry, I should clarify, I wasn't trying to dispute your posts or disagree with you. I was simply sharing my experiences with my FCD. Maybe mine is just a slightly different tolerance than yours; I'm not sure why I'm getting different results than it seems like most others are. Yeah the bullets falling apart is definitely not good! I've used lots of .356" plated bullets and some .356" coated lead bullets, but no plain lead. I never had an issue with the .356" either. I don't recall if I've ever pulled a bullet and measured the base to see if it's getting swagged at all, but I've never found any accuracy issues. I do think you should to explain to the OP (and me 'cause I wanna know) how to adjustthe FCD to get a .380 or larger crimp. I found the taper crimp allowed me the right crimp. I just set the FCD exactly how the instructions say to. Lower the die until it touches the shell plate and then tighten the lock ring. Then adjust the adjustment knob like it says in the instructions to first back it out, then with a round in turn until it touches the round, lower the ram and turn about another half turn. Depending on the bullets I'm using I think I'm usually a little more or less than half a turn, I just turn it enough so I'm removing the flare and making the neck straight, no more. I'm going to experiment with my FCD and see if it does anything different if I back the die out more so it's not touching the shell plate. I'm not sure if that'll matter since the carbide sizing ring is so low in the die it'll still go most of the way down the case. Has anyone tried this and seen if it makes a difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miranda Posted April 5, 2016 Share Posted April 5, 2016 well who needs sleep? your adjustment is the same as mine .... If you take my word for it, I have tried all I can think up I ended up with the top adjuster out of the FCD and with one of my fat bullets (.357) the FCD swaged the bullet. of note was that the die took more effort to get past the bullet than the middle of the case. that was when I stopped trying to get the FCD to work and ordered the taper crimp It was a while ago, about 2 years now, I have a new batch of bullets, I'll try the FCD again and see if a fresh set of eyes gets a different result. miranda miranda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted April 5, 2016 Share Posted April 5, 2016 well who needs sleep? your adjustment is the same as mine .... If you take my word for it, I have tried all I can think up I ended up with the top adjuster out of the FCD and with one of my fat bullets (.357) the FCD swaged the bullet. of note was that the die took more effort to get past the bullet than the middle of the case. that was when I stopped trying to get the FCD to work and ordered the taper crimp It was a while ago, about 2 years now, I have a new batch of bullets, I'll try the FCD again and see if a fresh set of eyes gets a different result. miranda miranda That's so strange that mine is so different. If I have the top adjustment knob all the way backed out it won't crimp at all and won't case gauge or chamber; I think it'd be something like .382", but it's been a while since I checked that. And normally I feel no resistance from the FCD, expect with CBC brass which is super thick, it definitely feels like it's resizing/swagging those although they still shoot fine. I do notice that my FCD does remove most of the "coke bottle" look to the brass which it has after seating, although it doesn't completely remove that look depending on the brass. I wonder what Lee would say if you asked them about the issues with you FCD. It shouldn't be crimping with the adjustment knob completely out. Maybe they'd give you a replacement which works better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wimms Posted April 5, 2016 Share Posted April 5, 2016 Look at the fcd diagram. The carbide sizing ring is flared to accept the round. Now, if you adjust the die so that the flared sizing ring just barely contacts the rim of the case, what do you get? If you adjust a taper crimp die to crimp perfectly, what happens? Adjust both dies like above, and what are they doing that is different? Anything? The entry flare of carbide ring is too steep. If you set it up like this you can find a case for which it will work fine, but then some other case will either roll crimp or not close the case flare. Inconsistent. What we really want here is long tapered cone that after adjustment is forgiving the case height variance. But not too long and not exactly like luger taper, becasue then we'd get case sticking I guess. In fact, FCD carbide ring is tapered too and should work like a charm if adjusted right. It's baffling that it works for some and doesn't work for others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wimms Posted April 5, 2016 Share Posted April 5, 2016 I've never had an issue with the FCD in 9mm or .40. It's all I ever used since it comes with the Lee die sets. Do people have issues with the FCD for .40 or is this just a 9mm issue due to the tapered case? I've loaded FMJ, plated, and coated lead with the FCD in 9mm and haven't noticed any issues at least, but I only use it because it came with the die set. I don't need it and would rather it just be a taper crimp die, but I love how easy the FCD is to adjust with the adjustment knob on the top. I hate messing with the lock rings; that's one of the reasons why I haven't replaced mine with a regular taper crimp die. get this: http://leeprecision.com/cmp-sleeve-9mm-mak.html and don't run your FCD deeper than bullet seat depth. That's the carbide sizing ring? Is it easy to swap them out? I've never taken the FCD apart. That is an interesting solution. Tempted to order, but since I'm not actually have any issues with my FCD I don't really want to pay $8 shipping for that little part No, carbide ring is not replaceable. It is the insert that moves inside the die and is stopped by the upper adjusting knob. If you are loading FMJ it should be fine. FMJ bullets are .355 or even less to ensure fit into all kinds of barrels including those made on blue monday. Thats what factory ammo uses and perhaps that is where the F in FCD comes from - use bullets they use in factory and you will get same results as factory ammo. I can vaguely remember now that I had problems with FCD when I switched to .3565 coated 152gr bullets from previously used .3555. It was then I was struggling to adjust the dies for all variance of cases and OALs. I must caution on my own advise I guess. When I switched to Makarvo insert I also switched to Makarov die, so I haven't actually tried Mak insert with FCD in the press. It fits into the die fine, same outer dimensions. But now thinking of it, FCD carbide insert is quite long, so if you have a problem with FCD carbide ring being too tight, this might not solve your problem because by raising the die at some point the insert will not even reach down enough to engage. Makarov FCD has worked nicely for me. YMMV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wimms Posted April 5, 2016 Share Posted April 5, 2016 And normally I feel no resistance from the FCD, expect with CBC brass which is super thick, it definitely feels like it's resizing/swagging those although they still shoot fine. I do notice that my FCD does remove most of the "coke bottle" look to the brass which it has after seating, although it doesn't completely remove that look depending on the brass Coke bottle effect is caused already in station 1. If FCD is removing it, it is most likely that you are swagging the base of the bullet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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