Firebird Tac-12 Vs. T&N 1919

[Mad Doc]

I have a Firebird Tac 12 the quality is superb but the weak link is that still uses a Turkish bolt and bolt carrier. After 2 years of intermittent problems I finally figured out that the malfunctions were related to a very weak extractor spring and a marred plunger. in my opinion the quality of the Turkish parts is subpar and the extractor geometry is inadequate. Once I fixed that the shotgun runs like a sewing machine even with cheap ammo. Last year at RM3g I met Jim, he is a gentleman and overall nice guy I discussed some of my shotgun issues with him, he was not only very helpful but he offered to lend me one of his shotguns for me to complete the match. Fortunately there was no need for that plus I didn't want it to impose. Jim knows the issues with the Turkish parts and he mentioned to me that unfortunately is not economically feasible to manufacture a bolt in the US. The TAC 12 is very easy to disassemble and clean and I am happy with my purchase.

[Flatland Shooter]

Do you know which bolt Firebird is using in the the Tac-12 guns? (XN or pre-XN)

Are they having problems with broken bolts and are replacements available?

Thanks,

[Mad Doc]

Mine was an XN, I contacted Akdal in Turkey via email requesting to buy a new bolt or extractor. They referred me to T&N as their distributor.

[Flatland Shooter]

My gun is an early Firebird Precision MKA 1919 (pre-XN) with the FP billet lower. So far more than 3500 rds through the gun with nothing broken, but with the bolt, drive block and locking block the weak points, I keep an eye out for replacements.

I did buy a new pre-XN gun from Tooth and Nail to be used as a parts gun.

The gun is a hoot to shoot and I dread the day it finally gives up the ghost. Maybe by then the Tac-12 will be 100% USA made and spare parts readily available.

Bill

[Todd7446]

Interested in getting a box-fed shotgun and looking at both Firebird and Tooth & Nail. As I look over the Firebird offering, I'm confused. Maybe a stupid newb question, but would appreciate some help.

On Firebird website it says "Complete TAC-12 with billet machined lower receiver. $2440" Then it says Buy online now at 3GunUSA. So I click over there and they're selling TAC-12 A-1, with a listed price of $1989. Am I comparing apples to oranges or what? Also, is a mid-barrel comp strongly recommended for this, and if so, what are the options? Thanks.

[ctay]

The $1989 is correct.

The mid barrel comp is definitely not required - may not even be terribly meaningful. I've now shot a Tac12 with and without a comp and really didn't feel any difference. That said, I like having it - even if only because it makes me think it is doing something...

I don't think the FB sight does a good job of explaining the pro's for the TAC-12A1. My list:

• Lower removeable like an AR15 - this is huge and so much better. The standard MKA disassembly is a real pain. You have to remove the stock and then carefully remove the lower to avoid damaging the feed ramp which can snap right off on a plastic gun. Even with the aluminum SAS lower on the T&N gun ($325 upgrade) you can easily damage the feed ramp (which I may have done the first time I disassembled the gun - ramp had a little chip in it when I inspected).
• Replaceable feed ramp. Even if you somehow damage your feed ramp on the TAC-12, it is replaceable. On all other MKA's you have to replace the entire lower if the feed ramp is damaged.
• Better feeding geometry. I can't say with absolute certainty that the TAC-12 and the SAS lower are different but I highly suspect they are. The TAC-12 feeds everything for me where I had frequent problems with the SAS lower. I finished MG Nationals without a single shotgun problem. I didn't finish one stage at Hard as Hell without a shotgun problem when I used my other gun. To be fair, I think it was more the mags than the T&N gun at but even with that the TAC-12 lower is clearly different and I am convinced that the geometry is more forgiving. I'm no engineer though so I could be wrong.
• This is totally judgement - but owning both guns I would say the TAC12 is much "tighter" feeling than the T&N gun was. The upper and lower fit together better and the trigger to the mag release just feels more solid. This is to be expected considering FB makes both the upper and the lower vs putting an adkal upper on a SAS lower.

Both guns use the adkal bolt and barrel so no difference there. Both shoot slugs well.

I'll reiterate that I don't want to put down T&N - that is not my purpose in sharing. I'm just sharing my thoughts having now owned both guns.

[Todd7446]

Thanks CTAY.

[Flatland Shooter]

CTAY, if I may ask a question or two, is the bolt and barrel the only Turkish parts in the TAC-12

And do you know if the bolt and barrel are from pre-XN or XN guns?

Thank you.

[ctay]

CTAY, if I may ask a question or two, is the bolt and barrel the only Turkish parts in the TAC-12

And do you know if the bolt and barrel are from pre-XN or XN guns?

Thank you.

I really don't know. I'm pretty sure the only Turkish parts are the bolt and barrel but I can't say for sure. I know that my barrel and bolt started out life as a MKA Match but I wanted to keep my barrel from my old gun (to keep the mid barrel comp) so we just transferred that over. I don't know what they use standard.

The fact that Jim used my MKA Match barrel and bolt does tell me that the most recent barrel and bolt parts fit into the Tac-12 which I think means the TAC-12 is more modular than a standard MKA. Again, I'm not an engineer so accept this statement as a total guess.

[Todd7446]

Is there a difference between a TAC-12 and a TAC-12 A-1 then? I've seen them referenced both ways. Last question, for today at least, what are the preferred magazines for these guns?

[ctay]

I think the official name for the complete gun is the TAC-12A1. The TAC-12 also references their replacement billet lower receiver for original MKA's. If you are buying new you want the TAC-12A1.

For mags, they are really all over the place. I would recommend getting several of the factory 5 rounders and buying the TACCOM +11 extenders. (http://www.taccom3g.com/taccom--11-round-extension-.html) You can also buy factory 10 rounders. The cheapest place I've found is http://www.centerfiresystems.com/magazines-mka-1919.aspx. I used the TACCOM mag (which holds 17 rounds for me) on every stage at MG Nats. I'm going to stock up on these for Iron Man and Hard as Hell this year as they seem to run great. Attach these mag clips from R&R (http://randrtargets.com/site/products-page/saiga-parts/mag-clips/) to attach them to your belt.

[BD Williamson]

I got some of the new batch of 10rd mags about 3 weeks ago from Centerfire systems and they don't work at all. Seems that the lower part of the mag which is the plastic part is way to narrow at the shotgun shell base to let it go down and load properly. I would recommend the 5rd metal mags with the Taccom +11 bases as we have been running them also and they seem to be the best option.

[Flatland Shooter]

If memory serves me, I read somewhere that the MKA 1919 10 rd magazines several vendors were selling (at really nice prices) were some old stock that had major problems. A newer version solved whatever problems found on the older ones. Now if only someone can tell us which vendors to avoid (at least until they run out of old stock). I'll see if I can find the source to be sure I'm giving good information.

I've got a half dozen 5 rd magazines converted to 15 rd with the FP-15 adapter and after a bunch of tuning all run great. I also have a single 18 rd Roulette mag that runs good. (I believe I bought it from you BD.)

If I decide I need a few more high cap magazines, I'll try the Taccom +11 bases. I picked up a dozen of the 5 round magazines when Lambo Armory was clearing them out for $10 each.

[Todd7446]

Thanks guys. Great info!

[Todd7446]

Well, the two week wait officially began today...

[toothandnail]

I have been in communication with tooth and nail... The fact that they are there and know what the hell is going on goes a good long way with me. They also offer 1 year warranty on their work... I have almost talked myself into buying one of their guns.

Actually it's 1 year, you break it we fix/replace it.

My son and I both have well over 10K through our guns, hardly, if ever, have any type of malfunction. As with any mag fed gun - pistol, rifle, or SG the mags are what makes or breaks the running of the gun.

Ammo is the second, find the ammo that works best and stick with it. My gun will run everything from Winchester Universal to the top of the line stuff. My son's will have a few FTE's with the Universal and other similar junk ammo.

It's surprising how many calls we get,

" My gun runs ammo X, Y, & Z perfectly, but has some failures on ammo U, I want to use U because it's cheap. What can I do to use ammo U?"

Mag tuning is pretty easy once you understand some basic things to look for. Guys are used to 2011 mags needing tuning, SG mags are along the same line, the bigger the mag the less error there is for bad feed lip specs.

That said we are testing a 28 round mag, looks pretty promising so far. The drum mag not so much

Seems like the Open/Unlimited Division is a growing division, just shipped out 3 complete setups today.

Edited May 2, 2016 by toothandnail

[Davidp1911]

Been running an O12 at matches. It shoot very flat and the 30rd drum comes in handy... no reloading!

[Zebraman]

CTAY,    My gun is very similar to yours.  I have an early XN model that I kept modifying until I had Firebird replace the upper and lower with their TAC 12A1 units.  The gun is extremely reliable and works 99.9% of the time.  I have recently started using an Armanov compensator, after trying nearly every  muzzle brake  I could find and/or adapt to my gun.   The Russian brakes, the GK-01 an the Dissident arms brakes were the most effective in my opinion, however, the adapter (that replaced the choke) only came in cylinder bore.  The other problem was that the choke tube would unscrew itself and would stay tight only if I used Red Locktite.   I then bought a brake made by Witt machine.  This brake clamps on the barrel, so I could easily change chokes, but the design was minimally effective, and since it was steel, it was heavier than I would have liked.  Which brings me to the Armanov.  The Armanov is made of aluminum, and clamps onto the barrel, which makes choke changes relatively simple.  It is reasonably light, and has 3 large ports.  This is the best muzzle brake/ compensator that I have found for the MKA.  The other good thing is that right now, the exchange rate for the Euro is really good, so I paid under $100.00 for it.    I am extremely happy with my TAC12A1, although it took awhile to get it sorted out.  Both Jim and Nancy were very helpful, and took a lot of time with me on the phone and via email getting the gun sorted out.  Having said all this, I have also been in communication with Matt Loganbill.  Matt has also answered all of my questions regarding his products, and I have purchased quite a few of them to use on my TAC12A1.   If anyone is looking for one of these guns, I would give a slight edge to the TAC12A1 because of the way the receiver comes apart for cleaning and transportation.  

Edited July 18, 2018 by Zebraman

[RH45]

I have one of Firebird’s, original, pre-xn, with a mid-barrel comp, which does help. I also have added 2, mercury recoil reducers, inside the tube, of the stock. It’ a LOT softer than a bare gun, but, softer yet would be better.

Where did you get your brake from? I’m not very good at computer searches, but, what I did find appeared to have to be imported from a different country, and the last 2 times I had parts imported, it was a PITA

Edited July 22, 2018 by RH45
Spelling

[RiggerJJ]

I played with a couple of end of barrel comps on a 21in barrel, short story; don't waste your money.

Unless you have a very very short barrel, (12 inches or shorter) by the time the payload gets past the comp the gases are all but expended, there is virtually no pressure to run the comp

 

Eta; the midbarrel design does work and work well...

 

Edited July 22, 2018 by RiggerJJ

[Zebraman]

RH45, I just sent you a message about the comp.  I did get this comp from Slovenia.  It took about a week to get it, which was faster than I expected.