glockmeister Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 I looked at the rule book and even searched similar topic, but my searchfu failed. In USPSA can a shooter (it applies to open and lim div) reposition the location of its mag pouches within the belt? Best example to use are shooters using ELS belt, COF all mags must be on barrel. Shooter on deck then removed mag pouches and replaced them with the magnetic ones, which made the shooter easier to attached the rest of the mags from the barrel. Is this legal or not? What rule would this apply if it is? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 (edited) 5.2.5.3 Unless specified in the written stage briefing, or unless required by a Range Officer, the position of holsters and allied equipment on the belt must not be moved or changed by a competitor during a match. If a retaining strap is attached to a holster or magazine pouch, it must be applied or closed prior to issuance of the “Standby” command. Edited February 16, 2016 by ChuckS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 (edited) ^^ Correct. Follow up question... If the shooter was able to complete the COF without anyone noticing until later in the day, or after the match, what is the call? Reshoot? If a reshoot is not possible, DQ? Zero for the stage? I would think a reshoot would be ordered, and a zero issued for that stage if it was not completed. Edited February 16, 2016 by waktasz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoshidaex Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 (edited) If the shooter moved equipment knowingly, wouldn't that fall under 10.6? Edited February 16, 2016 by yoshidaex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 ^^ Correct. Follow up question... If the shooter was able to complete the COF without anyone noticing until later in the day, or after the match, what is the call? Reshoot? If a reshoot is not possible, DQ? Zero for the stage? I would think a reshoot would be ordered, and a zero issued for that stage if it was not completed. I don't find anything that allows us to go back and apply penalties that were not applied at the time of the run. Once the score sheet is signed I think it is a done deal on the run. I don't find that in the list of things that cause a re-shoot. The only thing I see that fits is to give the guy a 10.6.1 DQ by calling it cheating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 ^^ Correct. Follow up question... If the shooter was able to complete the COF without anyone noticing until later in the day, or after the match, what is the call? Reshoot? If a reshoot is not possible, DQ? Zero for the stage? I would think a reshoot would be ordered, and a zero issued for that stage if it was not completed. I don't find anything that allows us to go back and apply penalties that were not applied at the time of the run. Once the score sheet is signed I think it is a done deal on the run. I don't find that in the list of things that cause a re-shoot. The only thing I see that fits is to give the guy a 10.6.1 DQ by calling it cheating. I've known people that have had to reshoot a stage after all parties involved realized an incorrect start position was used, long after the sheet was signed. The same rule could apply 8.2.2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 (edited) If the shooter moved equipment knowingly, wouldn't that fall under 10.6? I'm assuming it was ignorance, not purposeful avoidance of the rule. My guess is the guy is a 3 gun shooter (the ELS pouches give it away) and they are used to swapping gear for each stage. Edited February 16, 2016 by waktasz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 ^^ Correct. Follow up question... If the shooter was able to complete the COF without anyone noticing until later in the day, or after the match, what is the call? Reshoot? If a reshoot is not possible, DQ? Zero for the stage? I would think a reshoot would be ordered, and a zero issued for that stage if it was not completed. I don't find anything that allows us to go back and apply penalties that were not applied at the time of the run. Once the score sheet is signed I think it is a done deal on the run. I don't find that in the list of things that cause a re-shoot. The only thing I see that fits is to give the guy a 10.6.1 DQ by calling it cheating. I've known people that have had to reshoot a stage after all parties involved realized an incorrect start position was used, long after the sheet was signed. The same rule could apply 8.2.2. 8.2.2 seems to be specific for start position. How do you apply that rule to an equipment rule? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 I don't know, that's why I asked what the penalty is for not following 5.2.5.3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glockmeister Posted February 16, 2016 Author Share Posted February 16, 2016 5.2.5.3 Unless specified in the written stage briefing, or unless required by a Range Officer, the position of holsters and allied equipment on the belt must not be moved or changed by a competitor during a match. If a retaining strap is attached to a holster or magazine pouch, it must be applied or closed prior to issuance of the “Standby” command. I've read Chap 5 and I missed this rule. "not be moved or changed by a competitor during a match" That definitely answers my question. This happened during a local match and the RO did not realized what the shooter did but after the fact. RO told the shooter and the rest of the squad that it was illegal to move or change location of pouches. No one really argued since none of us knew a rule existed. Good to know. Thanks. ^^ Correct. Follow up question... If the shooter was able to complete the COF without anyone noticing until later in the day, or after the match, what is the call? Reshoot? If a reshoot is not possible, DQ? Zero for the stage? I would think a reshoot would be ordered, and a zero issued for that stage if it was not completed. Later in the day or after the match? The call stands I believe. Any arbitration must be done right after a shooter who had just shot and RO/RM/MD has to get involved. If the shooter moved equipment knowingly, wouldn't that fall under 10.6? I'm assuming it was ignorance, not purposeful avoidance of the rule. My guess is the guy is a 3 gun shooter (the ELS pouches give it away) and they are used to swapping gear for each stage. RO also mentioned that in 3gun different rules applies and yes the shooter is 3G shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glockmeister Posted February 16, 2016 Author Share Posted February 16, 2016 I don't know, that's why I asked what the penalty is for not following 5.2.5.3. I am curious as well as to what the repercussion is for breaking 5.2.5.3.... I am guessing a reshoot if the RO noticed right after calling ICHDAH? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 RO should not start a shooter that is not in compliance. No provision for retroactive action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 RO shouldn't start a shooter in the wrong start position either, but it happens. That rule has a provision for that situation though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 RO shouldn't start a shooter in the wrong start position either, but it happens. That rule has a provision for that situation though. Yup. Accident: reshoot Deliberate: 10.6 IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin c Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Unless the RO was following the squad, making note of equipment changes, how is the RO to know that it was done when the shooter comes to the line? It's not that the equipment is not in compliance with Division requirements, it's that it's changed during the match. So little chance of preventing it from happening unless the RO directly observes or is told of the violation in advance. Practically speaking, that means retrospectively recognizing the problem. Wouldn't that be a required reshoot, or, if reshoot is not possible, no score on the stage otherwise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Unless the RO was following the squad, making note of equipment changes, how is the RO to know that it was done when the shooter comes to the line? It's not that the equipment is not in compliance with Division requirements, it's that it's changed during the match. So little chance of preventing it from happening unless the RO directly observes or is told of the violation in advance. Practically speaking, that means retrospectively recognizing the problem. Wouldn't that be a required reshoot, or, if reshoot is not possible, no score on the stage otherwise? The shooter gas the responsibility to know and play by the rules.ALSO, in my opinion it should be obvious to even a new RO if a shooter comes to the line with no mag pouches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CZinZA Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 In IPSC we have individual shooter equipment sketches that go with the squad from stage to stage. They show the positions of gun, mag pouches and magnets. The ROs check each person regularly throughout the match Sent by Jedi mind control Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 In IPSC we have individual shooter equipment sketches that go with the squad from stage to stage. They show the positions of gun, mag pouches and magnets. The ROs check each person regularly throughout the match Sent by Jedi mind control Well, Ken, it looks like we need to embed JPGs in Practiscore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 In IPSC we have individual shooter equipment sketches that go with the squad from stage to stage. They show the positions of gun, mag pouches and magnets. The ROs check each person regularly throughout the match Sent by Jedi mind control Wow. You guys are serious.!. (It works though, I'd bet) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CZinZA Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Yeah. And despite what you may read in threads discussing how to get uspsa on television, we move aggressively Sent by Jedi mind control Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Yeah. And despite what you may read in threads discussing how to get uspsa on television, we move aggressively Sent by Jedi mind control Except Germany Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcs Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Yeah. And despite what you may read in threads discussing how to get uspsa on television, we move aggressively Sent by Jedi mind control I misread the rule in IPSC. "To prevent unsafe and/or unrealistic charging at, or retreat from, targets" whatever that means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeerBaron Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 Yeah. And despite what you may read in threads discussing how to get uspsa on television, we move aggressively Sent by Jedi mind control Except Germany lol, they still move aggressively. they just can't fire shots while doing it. Ze chermans I think are afraid that it's like chewing gun and walking at the same time and someone could get hurt! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glockmeister Posted February 19, 2016 Author Share Posted February 19, 2016 Unless the RO was following the squad, making note of equipment changes, how is the RO to know that it was done when the shooter comes to the line? It's not that the equipment is not in compliance with Division requirements, it's that it's changed during the match. So little chance of preventing it from happening unless the RO directly observes or is told of the violation in advance. Practically speaking, that means retrospectively recognizing the problem. Wouldn't that be a required reshoot, or, if reshoot is not possible, no score on the stage otherwise? +1 on that. Unless a dedicated RO follows the entire squad and will be the only way to know for sure. It boils down to the conpetitors responsibility to know and abide to the rules, but the problem comes when only a few are even familiar with the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbo76 Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 (edited) I have read the rule and question why it would matter if the position of the holster / mag pouches (magnets) are legal in the division. 5.2.5.x discusses division specific requirements and how to measure. My interpretation is once deemed legal you are not permitted to move equipment. (Mag pouch forward of the hip in ss or lower holster on prod/ss ect) this is an interesting rule though I was not aware of. Edited February 19, 2016 by sbo76 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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