Max Michel interview regarding making changes to the sports

[Chills1994]

I have to admit, i'm completely baffled as to why anyone would want to fish other than being hungry, and even more baffled as to why anyone would want to watch 'competitive' fishing.

But whatever, if someone wants to invent a new tv-friendly moneymaking action pistol sport, I wish them luck. I will resist any attempts to transform uspsa into such a creature.

I have said this time and time again...throw a big enough winning pot at something and people will watch it...because it is drama...

Yeah, that's right golf...I am looking at you!

Older white guys walking around, wearing ugly clothes, trying to knock a white ball into a hole with a glorified stick...

But throw a bunch of money at it, and people watch that schtuff on TV. And natuarlly, the advertisers/sponsors fall in line too.

From here:

http://mweb.cbssports.com/golf/eye-on-golf/25270785/pga-championship-complete-list-of-payouts-and-prize-money

...Below is the full list of prize money by position for the PGA Championship.

1st: $1,800,000

2nd: $1,080,000

3rd: $680,000

4th: $480,000

5th: $400,000

6th: $335,000

7th: $313,000

8th: $293,000

9th: $273,000

10th: $253,000

11th: $233,000

12th: 213,000

13th: $198,000

14th: $184,000

15th: $172,000

16th: $160,000

17th: $148,000

18th: $136,000

19th: $126,000

20th: $116,000

21st: $106,000

22nd: $96,000

23rd: $91,000

24th: $86,000

25th: $82,000

26th: $78,000

27th: $74,000

28th: $71,000

29th: $68,000

30th: $65,000

If there was like a USPSA nationals or a 3 Gun Shoot Off with a pot that deep, I could place 21st, and then start thinking about taking the rest of the year or the next year off from my real job.

Hell, yeah! Where do I sign up?

[Chills1994]

Which reminds me...when you look at all the major pro sports (and some college), what it all boils down to is that they have become a medium or a vehicle for selling advertising.

If you are wanting to get USPSA or some shooting match televised, it's about hooking in the advertisers.

[CZinZA]

Leave USPSA alone.

"This is my ball and you can't play with it."

Not at all. Pretty childish to even say that. But it is mine and every other members game. I for one don't think we need to be more like IPSC. Their system works where shooters have to sneak into buildings to shoot and only the very rich or elite can even own guns in many countries.

We are USPSA because we are in the USA where there more guns in most single states than there are in all of Europe.

Too much of a generalisation I'm afraid. We shoot IPSC all over the world, and your comments about IPSC don't apply to most of us.

Frankly i believe the shape of the target is irrelevant and i can't understand the amount of IPSC-bashing in this thread based purely on the fact we have a different target shape. We're not actually bad people. .....

Sent by Jedi mind control

Edited February 22, 2016 by CZinZA

[Bkreutz]

Target shape doesn't matter. We wouldn't be any more acceptable no matter what target shape we use. Using the same logic, we wouldn't be any more unacceptable if we used targets that looked just like people. The anti gunners hate our sport no matter what (including airsoft or nerf guns).

[Jim Watson]

Agree, it isn't the target, it's the guns.

I don't think shooters, especially pistol shooters can get PC enough to be a significant spectator sport.

Now, as to ol' Max...

With reference to the other sports mentioned, just which ones have professionals routinely competing against amateurs?

Routine in the shooting sports.

Never mind, I found the Other Thread. Nobody seems to mind, but it did kind of grate on me when the Corporation Employed Pro showed up and shot on Friday with the staff - at no charge - and then went his way to a bigger match on Saturday. A pleasant enough chap, but when he was done, he was out of there.

Edited February 23, 2016 by Jim Watson

[Nimitz]

You don't need 'Walking Dead' type ratings to be a financially viable sport with 'living wage' type prize money ....

How many people do you think watch professional bass fishing on TV yet the top pros make an actual living at it fishing tournaments (prize money) and nice sponsorship deals from big name companies ...

Who cares what the anti-gun crowd thinks ... They are not the target audience ... (No pun intended ...)

We should only care what potential sponsors think about the way teh sport is currently structured and what changed THEY think are required to make it TV & financially viable ... (If that's the objective)

Edited February 22, 2016 by Nimitz

[Nimitz]

Think about it like this ......

The top 3 gun manufacturers come to Mike Foley with a proposal .... They are prepared to invest some SERIOUS money into standing up a televised USPSA shooting circuit consisting of 12 events around the county over a 6 month period cumulating in a National Championship. They've got the TV deal all worked out with the Outdoor Channel, and even signed a contact with a host (Colby from Top Shot ... ). Prize money will start this first season at $25,000 for 1st & scale to the top ten ... They've also got a bunch of 2nd tier sponsors ready to sign up & host ranges lined up for all 13 events .....

There's just one catch .....

We can never use the metric target ever again ... Ever. It must be stricken for our rulebook & be banned.. Penalty for violation of this rule, even at the club level is permenant disbarment from the sport. Only the turtle target is allowable.

Does anyone here actually believe that Mr Foley would NOT consider committing USPSA to this deal without consultation of anyone?

I think that's how silly this argument about what targets we should be shooting is ...

[motosapiens]

We should only care what potential sponsors think about the way teh sport is currently structured and what changed THEY think are required to make it TV & financially viable ... (If that's the objective)

I strongly disagree. We should only care what potential sponsors think about the way the new sport we create will be structured to make it tv and financially viable. There's no need to screw up our sport so that max can make more money.

I don't fish, and don't know why anyone would, but I'm guessing most people don't want their day of fishing on the weekend to be like a bass tournament. I know I sure don't want the enduro series to be like supercross or x-games.

[motosapiens]

Think about it like this ......

The top 3 gun manufacturers come to Mike Foley with a proposal .... They are prepared to invest some SERIOUS money into standing up a televised USPSA shooting circuit consisting of 12 events around the county over a 6 month period cumulating in a National Championship. They've got the TV deal all worked out with the Outdoor Channel, and even signed a contact with a host (Colby from Top Shot ... ). Prize money will start this first season at $25,000 for 1st & scale to the top ten ... They've also got a bunch of 2nd tier sponsors ready to sign up & host ranges lined up for all 13 events .....

There's just one catch .....

We can never use the metric target ever again ... Ever. It must be stricken for our rulebook & be banned.. Penalty for violation of this rule, even at the club level is permenant disbarment from the sport. Only the turtle target is allowable.

Does anyone here actually believe that Mr Foley would NOT consider committing USPSA to this deal without consultation of anyone?

I think that's how silly this argument about what targets we should be shooting is ...

I would say it would be a great idea to create new sport with whatever targets the sponsors wanted, and continue to shoot uspsa the way *we* want.

If Mr Foley considered such a proposal, I would drive to his house and kick him in the balls. Or at least I'd post snarky memes about him on the interwebz.

[Gooldylocks]

Think about it like this ......

The top 3 gun manufacturers come to Mike Foley with a proposal .... They are prepared to invest some SERIOUS money into standing up a televised USPSA shooting circuit consisting of 12 events around the county over a 6 month period cumulating in a National Championship. They've got the TV deal all worked out with the Outdoor Channel, and even signed a contact with a host (Colby from Top Shot ... ). Prize money will start this first season at $25,000 for 1st & scale to the top ten ... They've also got a bunch of 2nd tier sponsors ready to sign up & host ranges lined up for all 13 events .....

There's just one catch .....

We can never use the metric target ever again ... Ever. It must be stricken for our rulebook & be banned.. Penalty for violation of this rule, even at the club level is permenant disbarment from the sport. Only the turtle target is allowable.

Does anyone here actually believe that Mr Foley would NOT consider committing USPSA to this deal without consultation of anyone?

I think that's how silly this argument about what targets we should be shooting is ...

I would vote yes in a heartbeat. To me that makes perfect sense, and if it were successful it would surely grow into something even bigger. Imagine how much more coverage there would be if the prize purse doubled, or made it to 6 figures. People would try to make a career out of it. I know I would.

[Bkreutz]

You don't need 'Walking Dead' type ratings to be a financially viable sport with 'living wage' type prize money ....

How many people do you think watch professional bass fishing on TV yet the top pros make an actual living at it fishing tournaments (prize money) and nice sponsorship deals from big name companies ...

Who cares what the anti-gun crowd thinks ... They are not the target audience ... (No pun intended ...)

We should only care what potential sponsors think about the way teh sport is currently structured and what changed THEY think are required to make it TV & financially viable ... (If that's the objective)

Problem with this analogy is that no one (or very few) are trying to ban the possession of fishing poles. Same thing goes with other sports, bowling balls can be a weapon (and bowling pins have heads as was mentioned before) but there is no organized effort to outlaw any of these sports. The same cannot be said about the shooting sports.

[Gooldylocks]

You don't need 'Walking Dead' type ratings to be a financially viable sport with 'living wage' type prize money ....

How many people do you think watch professional bass fishing on TV yet the top pros make an actual living at it fishing tournaments (prize money) and nice sponsorship deals from big name companies ...

Who cares what the anti-gun crowd thinks ... They are not the target audience ... (No pun intended ...)

We should only care what potential sponsors think about the way teh sport is currently structured and what changed THEY think are required to make it TV & financially viable ... (If that's the objective)

Problem with this analogy is that no one (or very few) are trying to ban the possession of fishing poles. Same thing goes with other sports, bowling balls can be a weapon (and bowling pins have heads as was mentioned before) but there is no organized effort to outlaw any of these sports. The same cannot be said about the shooting sports.

But that organized effort to ban guns will continue regardless of our target. But if we can get more exposure, possibly through changing a target, then perhaps more people would be more accepting of our sport. Maybe we could get some of the people that don't have strong feelings one way or the other to come to our side.

[Bamboo]

Anybody pay attention to what they were discussing at the 8:00 mark? Take the "V" out of DVC? Personally, not a big fan of that.

I like the Metric (old USPSA) target and the Classic (new IPSC) target, so going to either exclusively wouldn't ruin my shooting experience at matches. But, I don't believe we should change the targets in hopes of becoming more appealing to the masses. It won't change a thing.

This conversation reminds me of discussions Dave Stanford, the BoD, and the membership had in the early 90's in hopes of making USPSA more mainstream/less threatening/more appealing to sponsors/etc. etc. Just fast forwarded 25 years. IIRC back then the discussion also included how wrong it was to wear camo or any paramilitary clothing.

Edited February 23, 2016 by Bamboo

[Beastly]

I don't fish, and don't know why anyone would, but I'm guessing most people don't want their day of fishing on the weekend to be like a bass tournament. I know I sure don't want the enduro series to be like supercross or x-games.

A lot of bass fishermen that are just like USPSA competitors. They spend their Saturday or whenever in a local bass fishing tournament that at the end of the day, is suspiciously similar to a USPSA match. A lot of them move from lake to lake around their local area, and go to the fishing equivalent of 'major' matches.

I'm not talking about Bubba with a chunk of hot dog on a string, I'm talking about a significant # of highly competitive guys with 5-6 figures worth of gear including truck, $50K bass boat with a 10 YEAR note, custom electronics, many specialized custom rod & reel combos, innumerable pricey baits and TONS of supporting gear.

USPSA is CHEAP in comparison.

[d_striker]

Firstly, I like the Metric target but I don't have an issue with the IPSC target either.

My non-gun friends aren't anti-gun by any means, they just aren't really into them. A lot of them are at the early stages of starting families and have young kids. They just don't have the time or money to get into it. When these non-gun friends want to see what I'm spending so much time on I'll show them a video on my phone of me running a stage. The first or second thing they notice are the obviously humanoid targets which they find odd.

I'm always talking about it as if USPSA is a sport and they literally think I'm training to shoot people.

[gino_aki]

Think about it like this ......

The top 3 gun manufacturers come to Mike Foley with a proposal .... They are prepared to invest some SERIOUS money into standing up a televised USPSA shooting circuit consisting of 12 events around the county over a 6 month period cumulating in a National Championship. They've got the TV deal all worked out with the Outdoor Channel, and even signed a contact with a host (Colby from Top Shot ... ). Prize money will start this first season at $25,000 for 1st & scale to the top ten ... They've also got a bunch of 2nd tier sponsors ready to sign up & host ranges lined up for all 13 events .....

There's just one catch .....

We can never use the metric target ever again ... Ever. It must be stricken for our rulebook & be banned.. Penalty for violation of this rule, even at the club level is permenant disbarment from the sport. Only the turtle target is allowable.

Does anyone here actually believe that Mr Foley would NOT consider committing USPSA to this deal without consultation of anyone?

I think that's how silly this argument about what targets we should be shooting is ...

I think Mr. Foley would consider committing USPSA to such a deal but he'd have to put it before the board. And if he's as smart as I think he is he'd also put it before the general membership. If he didn't he'd be no better than any of the current "leaders" that so many here and elsewhere already despise.

[Gooldylocks]

Think about it like this ......

The top 3 gun manufacturers come to Mike Foley with a proposal .... They are prepared to invest some SERIOUS money into standing up a televised USPSA shooting circuit consisting of 12 events around the county over a 6 month period cumulating in a National Championship. They've got the TV deal all worked out with the Outdoor Channel, and even signed a contact with a host (Colby from Top Shot ... ). Prize money will start this first season at $25,000 for 1st & scale to the top ten ... They've also got a bunch of 2nd tier sponsors ready to sign up & host ranges lined up for all 13 events .....

There's just one catch .....

We can never use the metric target ever again ... Ever. It must be stricken for our rulebook & be banned.. Penalty for violation of this rule, even at the club level is permenant disbarment from the sport. Only the turtle target is allowable.

Does anyone here actually believe that Mr Foley would NOT consider committing USPSA to this deal without consultation of anyone?

I think that's how silly this argument about what targets we should be shooting is ...

I think Mr. Foley would consider committing USPSA to such a deal but he'd have to put it before the board. And if he's as smart as I think he is he'd also put it before the general membership. If he didn't he'd be no better than any of the current "leaders" that so many here and elsewhere already despise.

I think that if it were put in front of the general membership, it would pass if we could get a $25-50,000 series going.

[PatJones]

I'm always talking about it as if USPSA is a sport and they literally think I'm training to shoot people.

Yup, I'm selective about who I show video to. If you don't shoot USPSA, it does look like we're training for a mall shooting. The turtle targets help with appearances, but god forbid we do anything perceived as "PC".

We'll never appeal to the anti-gunners, but it would be nice if USPSA was more mainstream with the average shooter. The upper scoring zone allows for some interesting target presentations, but the turtle target rewards competitors that can hit the smaller A zone. You can aim can't you?

[d_striker]

I'm always talking about it as if USPSA is a sport and they literally think I'm training to shoot people.

Yup, I'm selective about who I show video to. If you don't shoot USPSA, it does look like we're training for a mall shooting. The turtle targets help with appearances, but god forbid we do anything perceived as "PC".

We'll never appeal to the anti-gunners, but it would be nice if USPSA was more mainstream with the average shooter. The upper scoring zone allows for some interesting target presentations, but the turtle target rewards competitors that can hit the smaller A zone. You can aim can't you?

Like I was saying, though, these people aren't anti-gun. They just aren't fanatics like most of us on this forum.

[Bryan 45]

It's a ridiculous argument really.

It hasn't worked for IPSC. They aren't main stream- and it's not because of the lack of human shaped targets.

REAL GUNS! We use real guns. Not paintball. Not airsoft. Until the sport eliminates the use of real firearms, it will not be mainstream. Is that what all those who want to see these fat checks from non-endemic sponsors really want?

I could sum up my thoughts on this very easily, but it would get me banned, because it would certainly use profanity to great effect.

[StealthyBlagga]

...

I think Mr. Foley would consider committing USPSA to such a deal but he'd have to put it before the board. And if he's as smart as I think he is he'd also put it before the general membership. If he didn't he'd be no better than any of the current "leaders" that so many here and elsewhere already despise.

I think that if it were put in front of the general membership, it would pass if we could get a $25-50,000 series going.

Good God, I would hope NOT. I think more of the membership than that.

By all means start a new and different pro sport, under the USPSA umbrella if you must, but leave the core USPSA amateur match format alone.

Edited February 23, 2016 by StealthyBlagga

[Strick]

...

I think Mr. Foley would consider committing USPSA to such a deal but he'd have to put it before the board. And if he's as smart as I think he is he'd also put it before the general membership. If he didn't he'd be no better than any of the current "leaders" that so many here and elsewhere already despise.

I think that if it were put in front of the general membership, it would pass if we could get a $25-50,000 series going.

Good God, I would hope NOT. I think more of the membership than that.

By all means start a new and different pro sport, under the USPSA umbrella if you must, but leave the core USPSA amateur match format alone.

What are you talking about when you make these statements? I also find it odd that a PCC supporter at a handgun match would hate to see hadgun matches change to get more money involved.......that is funny. LOL

[Sarge]

...

I think Mr. Foley would consider committing USPSA to such a deal but he'd have to put it before the board. And if he's as smart as I think he is he'd also put it before the general membership. If he didn't he'd be no better than any of the current "leaders" that so many here and elsewhere already despise.

I think that if it were put in front of the general membership, it would pass if we could get a $25-50,000 series going.

Good God, I would hope NOT. I think more of the membership than that.

By all means start a new and different pro sport, under the USPSA umbrella if you must, but leave the core USPSA amateur match format alone.

What are you talking about when you make these statements? I also find it odd that a PCC supporter at a handgun match would hate to see hadgun matches change to get more money involved.......that is funny. LOL

Actually I find your comments funny. What on earth does supporting PCC have to do with anything here?

I support PCC but no way would I support a tv show that will benefit only a select few top level shooters. What do the other 20,000 of us get out of it except being forced to be like the rest of the "not" free world of IPSC?

[busdriver02]

I think the continued discussion of "mainstream" is probably a bad description. Will any shooting sport ever really be mainstream? Biathlon sure isn't, but they're also not painted as wannabe Wolverines.

Folks who hate guns will never think USPSA is OK, to them people who shoot guns will always be a fringe element of society. Even if that "fringe" is actually a large number of people or even the majority.

The discussion should be about the middle ground. How do we control the narrative so people who already own guns view competitive shooting the same way you might think about a pick-up game of basketball?

I think the turtle targets would make it look less like we're training to be a one person assault force against a horde of terrorists. That sounds ridiculous when you actually say it, but as d-striker pointed out people actually think that way.

BUT if that wouldn't help convincing the middle ground, what would?

[Strick]

...

I think Mr. Foley would consider committing USPSA to such a deal but he'd have to put it before the board. And if he's as smart as I think he is he'd also put it before the general membership. If he didn't he'd be no better than any of the current "leaders" that so many here and elsewhere already despise.

I think that if it were put in front of the general membership, it would pass if we could get a $25-50,000 series going.

Good God, I would hope NOT. I think more of the membership than that.

By all means start a new and different pro sport, under the USPSA umbrella if you must, but leave the core USPSA amateur match format alone.

What are you talking about when you make these statements? I also find it odd that a PCC supporter at a handgun match would hate to see hadgun matches change to get more money involved.......that is funny. LOL

Actually I find your comments funny. What on earth does supporting PCC have to do with anything here?

I support PCC but no way would I support a tv show that will benefit only a select few top level shooters. What do the other 20,000 of us get out of it except being forced to be like the rest of the "not" free world of IPSC?

Since you asked.....PCC, rifle at a handgun match will only benefit a few shooters in the grand scheme of things but that seems to be ok. Also how is only exclusively using 1 of the 2 targets we currently use changing the game at all. Other than the chest pounding no one has stated how it affects anything. And lastly i amnot sure how bring money into the sport only benefits a select few, that is the type of logic that just escapes me......"I am not good enough or won't benefit so no one should".