hwansikcjswo Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 (edited) Any thoughts on changing human targets to turtles? Metric vs Emperial? Rugby vs Football? IPSC vs USPSA? Sports vs Tactical training? https://youtu.be/0RAoe3gClfk?t=1476 Edited February 15, 2016 by hwansikcjswo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 I don't shoot at human targets. I shoot at cardboard targets that have a head box. turtle targets are for prancing sissies and socialists, imho. Hopefully bernie sanders won't make the choice for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris iliff Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 I wouldn't change them or support anyone wanting to change them. This IPSC thing, Lest we forget, is an American invention. It's our sport and basically the rest of the world glommed on after the fact. When the rest of the world started to lose gun rights, their gun groups started acquiescing to political pressure and anti gun sentiment.......hence the turtle targets. Guess what? Didn't matter one bit, they still lost and are losing to the anti gunners every year. In fact, the mere mention of doing away with "our" target is disgusting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnote Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 (edited) ya, lets get rid of comstock and metric targets in hopes of espn coverage and $$$$ Edited February 16, 2016 by cnote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Distant Thunder Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 I could care less what type of targets we use to shoot our matches. All those who get out to compete will be in the same boat and it won't be any less fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gooldylocks Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 I like metrics, I like classics, it wouldn't change the sport for me. And, it would bring us more in line with IPSC, as a side bonus. I understand doing it if we would get more mainstream media coverage. Being able to click on to ESPN and see the Area match that's playing can only help the sport. I fully agree that outside sponsors are crucial if we are serious about growing the sport more towards the mainstream. Whether getting rid of metrics is the correct way or not, I don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnote Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 Have you ever clicked on espn and seen trap, skeet, camp perry, etc. Its not going to happen, We barely get any Olympic coverage, if at all, including biathlon. ESPN is anti gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 I wish we could change the names for one thing; we should call the metric target the 'USPSA Target' and the (so-called) classic target should be called the 'IPSC Target'. The current names make no sense to me at all. Regarding which one to shoot, I prefer the IPSC target because I think it enhances the accuracy requirements of the sport, I think they stand up a little better to rain, but the scoring lines are hard to determine once there are a few patches on the target. Changing the targets for political reasons is not going to accomplish anything, we tried that in the UK and it made no difference whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatriotMRD Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 Have you ever clicked on espn and seen trap, skeet, camp perry, etc. Its not going to happen, We barely get any Olympic coverage, if at all, including biathlon. ESPN is anti gun. I don't understand this push to make it more palatable to the PC, anti-gunners. If they change to the turtle/amoeba targets I will renounce my membership in USPSA/Steel Challenge, never attend another USPSA/Steel Challenge match again and actively work to create/promote an alternative. It's not our targets they have the real problem with, IT'S THE GUNS. ESPN will never cover it. THEY HATE US BECAUSE OF THE GUNS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilkMyDuds Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 Have you ever clicked on espn and seen trap, skeet, camp perry, etc. Its not going to happen, We barely get any Olympic coverage, if at all, including biathlon. ESPN is anti gun. I don't understand this push to make it more palatable to the PC, anti-gunners. If they change to the turtle/amoeba targets I will renounce my membership in USPSA/Steel Challenge, never attend another USPSA/Steel Challenge match again and actively work to create/promote an alternative. It's not our targets they have the real problem with, IT'S THE GUNS. ESPN will never cover it. THEY HATE US BECAUSE OF THE GUNS. https://youtu.be/SYl_iMYbIQgSent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatriotMRD Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 I know I'll be accused of being a "Tactical Billy" but I don't care. I don't show up in BDUs. My pistols are as shiny as anyone's. My jersey is black and bright green. If you want to be PC, you can split IPSC and USPSA or you can do it without me. We don't need to be like the rest of the world. I agree with much of the rest of what he said about simplified scoring but, on the targets I DO NOT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 Many moons ago, Dan Rather came out to Norco to see KC when he was a 12 year old GM. JoJo set up a stage to use for the spot using classic targets. Rather referred to them as "Torso-shaped" targets. You are not going to win that one. He also had a retired Colonel on the spot who reveiwed the video and was sure that we are training for urban combat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatriotMRD Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 Have you ever clicked on espn and seen trap, skeet, camp perry, etc. Its not going to happen, We barely get any Olympic coverage, if at all, including biathlon. ESPN is anti gun. I don't understand this push to make it more palatable to the PC, anti-gunners. If they change to the turtle/amoeba targets I will renounce my membership in USPSA/Steel Challenge, never attend another USPSA/Steel Challenge match again and actively work to create/promote an alternative. It's not our targets they have the real problem with, IT'S THE GUNS. ESPN will never cover it. THEY HATE US BECAUSE OF THE GUNS. https://youtu.be/SYl_iMYbIQgSent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk That was over 20 years ago. It's run by a whole different crowd now. Remember that 3GN was on NBC Sports with their PC pizza-box-lid targets. When some worthless POS shot up a school NBC turned on them in about 3 seconds. NBC, ESPN, etc don't cover bullseye shooting or barely cover the Olympic shooting (granted, both are boring) and their targets are as PC as they get. What makes you think changing targets or banning tactical gear makes it more appealing to the media? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishsticks Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 My thought is don't change a thing. Changing target shapes is meaningless and won't change anyone's mind about shooting or the shooting sports. PC crap is just that in any of its forms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatJones Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 You just don't like the smaller A zone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gooldylocks Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 My thought is don't change a thing. Changing target shapes is meaningless and won't change anyone's mind about shooting or the shooting sports. PC crap is just that in any of its forms. Have you ever clicked on espn and seen trap, skeet, camp perry, etc. Its not going to happen, We barely get any Olympic coverage, if at all, including biathlon. ESPN is anti gun. I don't understand this push to make it more palatable to the PC, anti-gunners. If they change to the turtle/amoeba targets I will renounce my membership in USPSA/Steel Challenge, never attend another USPSA/Steel Challenge match again and actively work to create/promote an alternative. It's not our targets they have the real problem with, IT'S THE GUNS. ESPN will never cover it. THEY HATE US BECAUSE OF THE GUNS. I wouldn't change them or support anyone wanting to change them. This IPSC thing, Lest we forget, is an American invention. It's our sport and basically the rest of the world glommed on after the fact. When the rest of the world started to lose gun rights, their gun groups started acquiescing to political pressure and anti gun sentiment.......hence the turtle targets. Guess what? Didn't matter one bit, they still lost and are losing to the anti gunners every year. In fact, the mere mention of doing away with "our" target is disgusting. I know I'll be accused of being a "Tactical Billy" but I don't care. I don't show up in BDUs. My pistols are as shiny as anyone's. My jersey is black and bright green. If you want to be PC, you can split IPSC and USPSA or you can do it without me. We don't need to be like the rest of the world. I agree with much of the rest of what he said about simplified scoring but, on the targets I DO NOT. You guys sound exactly like the people he was calling out in the video, just saying. Not agreeing or disagreeing with you guys or Max, but he pretty much nailed that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeerBaron Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 I wish we could change the names for one thing; we should call the metric target the 'USPSA Target' and the (so-called) classic target should be called the 'IPSC Target'. The current names make no sense to me at all. Regarding which one to shoot, I prefer the IPSC target because I think it enhances the accuracy requirements of the sport, I think they stand up a little better to rain, but the scoring lines are hard to determine once there are a few patches on the target. Changing the targets for political reasons is not going to accomplish anything, we tried that in the UK and it made no difference whatsoever. it's called the metric target as it was designed a a 'metric' of a human silhouette. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooke Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 Ignoring advice from two of the best known shooters in the game is exceptional....for its ignorance. All this tough guy crap from you and groups like the NRA is eventually going to be the downfall of the gun sports. You best wake up and realize that the Millennial generation looks at things differently than some of us "older" white guys brought up in a different era. We are quickly giving up power to the new guys and they will drown us unless we realize that we are not exceptional, no longer in charge, and more bark than bite. The guys on this video are not the enemy. They are two of the most involved individuals in the sport and we best not ignore their view by burying our collective heads in the sand. We stand to become obsolete and irrelevant by being hard headed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickBlasta Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 You also have to realize that these two guys do this for a living and derive all their income from shooting. They have more than a vested interest in making shooting more marketable, regardless of the consequences. What benefit does killing the metric target or putting the show on TV give to the membership? Aren't we still all arguing over whether or not it's good to grow the sport and if it's at its carrying capacity? Remember that 3 gun nation was on NBC with its giant non-threatening pizza box and the network dropped it like it was hot after a mass shooting. There's a certain benefit to not making the sport fuzzy-friendly and still having it be at the whim of people who culturally dislike firearms regardless of what you're shooting at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frgood Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 If one was to listen to their argument, they make a valid point for their claimed objective. If you want to try to take this sport more mainstream some things will require changing. Ironically, I recall the very same debate back in 2002 in paintball. At the time X-Ball was being developed for a more friendly TV audience. IIRC, Dick Clark's team was actually working on one of the larger TV deals at the time of his untimely death. I see here the exact same sentiment/debate here as back then. For those of us that treat this as a sport, I have no issue with the proposed recommendation, However, to be a sport worthy of mass consumption there would probably have to be the development of something completely different. To compare; Golf is a similar sports structure in that it is a personal competition (i.e. individual attempts at a task with the result scored against others). Sadly, golfers have a significant share of participants that are willing to watch. I also think that the massive tournament purses (sponsorship) bring an audience worthy of the investment. Seriously, a couple million shooters is not a significant number. Other sports that garner viewership require some form of conflict that fits into a 16:9 format, is easily understood concept of play, and enforces some form of tribal participation (fans). These are the same hurdles paintball had. It is too difficult to put on a screen. In our case, going back to the golf analogy. A match would run several hours on TV and involve jumping around the match to track real-time scoring. Personal skill sports has many challenges to become mass consumed. not impossible but it will require thought and change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete627 Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 (edited) wth?? ... I paid $27 for a DAA target case to carry my targets to the range!! Have you ever seen a platoon of those things get loose in the back of your car (with the windows down)?? No more "bravos"?? Throw out all those classifiers?? ... Wow ... edit: Here is a nice article from one of the previous cycles of the topic ... http://www.gunnuts.net/2010/11/01/ipsc-classic-vs-metric-target/ We could use NRA D-1 (the ICORE tombstone) ... no "turtle/body part" innuendo going on there!! Edited February 16, 2016 by pete627 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewColonial Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 wth?? ... I paid $27 for a DAA target case to carry my targets to the range!! Have you ever seen a platoon of those things get loose in the back of your car (with the windows down)?? No more "bravos"?? Throw out all those classifiers?? ... Wow ... TargetCase.jpg According to Max's logic, that looks suspiciously like a body bag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcs Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 Be careful what you ask for. IPSC would radicalize stage design. The targets are first, then you can't run forward because that is aggressive. If people want IPSC, move to Europe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewColonial Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 I suppose in this guy's case it's an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatriotMRD Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 My thought is don't change a thing. Changing target shapes is meaningless and won't change anyone's mind about shooting or the shooting sports. PC crap is just that in any of its forms. Have you ever clicked on espn and seen trap, skeet, camp perry, etc. Its not going to happen, We barely get any Olympic coverage, if at all, including biathlon. ESPN is anti gun. I don't understand this push to make it more palatable to the PC, anti-gunners. If they change to the turtle/amoeba targets I will renounce my membership in USPSA/Steel Challenge, never attend another USPSA/Steel Challenge match again and actively work to create/promote an alternative. It's not our targets they have the real problem with, IT'S THE GUNS. ESPN will never cover it. THEY HATE US BECAUSE OF THE GUNS. I wouldn't change them or support anyone wanting to change them. This IPSC thing, Lest we forget, is an American invention. It's our sport and basically the rest of the world glommed on after the fact. When the rest of the world started to lose gun rights, their gun groups started acquiescing to political pressure and anti gun sentiment.......hence the turtle targets. Guess what? Didn't matter one bit, they still lost and are losing to the anti gunners every year. In fact, the mere mention of doing away with "our" target is disgusting. I know I'll be accused of being a "Tactical Billy" but I don't care. I don't show up in BDUs. My pistols are as shiny as anyone's. My jersey is black and bright green. If you want to be PC, you can split IPSC and USPSA or you can do it without me. We don't need to be like the rest of the world. I agree with much of the rest of what he said about simplified scoring but, on the targets I DO NOT. You guys sound exactly like the people he was calling out in the video, just saying. Not agreeing or disagreeing with you guys or Max, but he pretty much nailed that one. I realize it's people like me he's calling out. Instead of trying to change the minds of the public he's surrendering to the PC crowd. Truly disappointing... And, no, he didn't nail it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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