abcxyz Posted May 28, 2002 Share Posted May 28, 2002 I was just wondering, what's considered a excellent/good/average/poor group distance for a beginner/rookie at say 7 yards(21feet) and 11 yards (33feet). Also, how many shots are considered standard in a group, I think I read somewhere that i was 5? Is that right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogmaDog Posted May 28, 2002 Share Posted May 28, 2002 abcxyz, Well, it depends. (You knew you'd get that answer, didn't you?) 1) How are you holding the gun? Offhand? Benchrest? Supported? One hand? 2) How fast are you shooting? Slow fire? Rapid fire? Usually, gun mags report 5 shot groups fired from 25 yards slow fire with a rest of some sort, because they're trying to report something about the gun and not the shooter, and they'll report groups anywhere from 1" to 3", which is presumeably close to what that particular gun/ammo combination is mechanically capable of. If you're shooting slow fire at 7 yards, and you shoot 5 good shots (don't jerk one or anything), then I don't see any reason you couldn't hold 3" or 4", assuming you execute the fundamentals. Finally, it depends on what you're trying to hit. If you're shooting at a target paster at 15 yards, slow fire, there's a good chance you'll get smaller groups than if you're trying to hit the -0 zone of an IDPA target at 7 yards, so you have to decide to aim at something as close to a geometric point as you can get. I took a "riflery" class at the college I go to, and the coach shot a quarter sized group of 3 or 4 shots offhand from 50' on a BLANK PIECE OF PAPER. That was pretty cool. Semper Fi, DogmaDog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 28, 2002 Share Posted May 28, 2002 I think that at 7 yards, you ought to be able to have five shots touching a paster. I would call that good/average. If I couldn't get that...I'd try some of the accuracy drills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abcxyz Posted May 28, 2002 Author Share Posted May 28, 2002 Thanks for the responses. I guess I missed out a lot of details huh? Ok, I guess I'm talking 2 handed, no support, and shooting 5 shots in maybe a minute (which is slow I know), sometimes taking a rest I start to tremble or just get tired because I'm trying to think of all the fundamentals at the same time (brain strain you know. =) I'm just shooting at some paper targets I printed off the internet and pretty much aiming for the same spot every time. I thought I did ok on Sunday, several of my group of shots had 3 or 4 shots that were side by side (i.e., ripping the paper into 1 'bigger' hole, and then one or two shots that was independent of the side by side ones.) I figured I did that a few times on several targets, so I just have to get some consistency down, and make sure I concentrate on all 5 shots, and not lose it after 3 or 4. Not really sure how well I'm doing, I get disappointed when the 2 farthest shots are more 3-4 inches apart, which isn't too often actually, am I expecting too much, or off to a good start? I've shot about 600-700 rounds total since I started... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 28, 2002 Share Posted May 28, 2002 Try this one out. http://www.brianenos.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard...=5&topic=63 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogmaDog Posted May 28, 2002 Share Posted May 28, 2002 abc, Sounds like you're doing fine. Continue (or start) to dry fire at home and develop your ability to really concentrate on the sights. You want to see NO movement when the hammer drops...not even a little! Also, push the target back! It sounds like you're reading the right stuff, learning the fundamentals, and can basically hit...push the target out to 25 yards! You'll have less tendency to accidentally focus on the target, and you'll have to concentrate more on the sights. That will carry into your close in shooting. Semper Fi, DogmaDog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted May 28, 2002 Share Posted May 28, 2002 abcxyz: Seems like people who shoot little groups also fish. But unlike fish stories where the fish grows, group sizes tend to shrink. Don't fall into the trap of becoming frustrated because you feel like you fail to live up to a standard that was set by someone else. Set your own standards based upon your current ability with the goal to be to improve. If your current standard (par) is 5 shots into an eight inch circle at 10 yards, then set a goal of shooting 5 shots into a six inch circle at ten yards. When you reach that goal, your old goal becomes your par and you set a new goal. The new goal could be 5 shots into a 3 inch circle. You know how it works. As long as you set realistic goals and make improvements that allow you to reah or get closer to those goals, then there is no need to feel anything other than a sense of achievement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 28, 2002 Share Posted May 28, 2002 Ron said: "Seems like people who shoot little groups also fish. But unlike fish stories where the fish grows, group sizes tend to shrink." ...and the "one that got away" is the flyer that opened up the group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abcxyz Posted May 28, 2002 Author Share Posted May 28, 2002 Thanks for the comments. Dogma, yep, I'm already doing the dry firing at home, and there is pretty much little or no movement, I even put a cartridge casing on the front sight and squeeze the trigger, the thing hasn't fallen off yet. I have very steady hands to begin with and I've been working out for 12 years, so I have good muscle control too, but for sure I will keep practicing. Unfortunately the range I'm at is an indoor range with a maximum of 50feet (16.67 yards), so I can't go back to 25 yards! Shouldn't I practice from closer and then go farther and farther back? Is that a good method? Ron, Thanks for the encouragment and tips. I guess I'm disappointed becuz I really don't know what the standard is. I'm new to this, I have nothing and no other beginner to measure against, so I have absolutely NO clue as to how I'm doing, whether I'm a slow learner, average, or doing better than average. So when I say I'm disappointed if the group is 4 inches, maybe that's already better than average for a beginner, but I woudln't know, hence my initial post. But your right, gotta set my own goals and improve based on that. Thanks. Wish I had something to measure against on "my level" though besides myself... Flex, Checked out that link, I'll have to try the 3x5 card =) what does "5 shots touching a paster" mean? Sorry for the stupid question...don't know all this shooting lingo yet... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted May 28, 2002 Share Posted May 28, 2002 Also What kind of gun? modifications? My sig 226 will give my raceguns somewhat serious competition on a rest. A Brand X/or whatever might not. Although I have found most all guns shoot pretty accurate, at least the ones we use. A single action sub 2 pound trigger makes a bigger difference for me off hand. Also try it on a sandbag at 50 feet. You should get Kyle's "paster" group or all holes touching or real close to it. Watch the gun while using the rest. I mean really watch it. You will learn a lot about your technique. I remember the first time I saw the Fire in front of the front sight. It was there all along and still is but I was not seeing it. Not that you "need to see it" but shows how little you can pay attention. When I teach a new shooter we usually start at 3 feet. If you can't shoot accurate at 1 yard then how can you at 15 yards? You are beyond this but trying to make a point. The force is not with any of us. Perfect practice is what gets you there. (Edited by BSeevers at 4:19 pm on May 28, 2002) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 28, 2002 Share Posted May 28, 2002 paster = those little things they use to tape up the holes made by bullets at USPSA matches. They are a bit under an inch square (just measured one at 0.875) When I say "touching", that was meant to mean that the bullet ought to at least touch the outside edge of the paster. Group of five. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted May 31, 2002 Share Posted May 31, 2002 Don't get too hooked up in the end result, look for progress, if you are only capable of say a 4"group at 10yds, theres no sense stressing out about getting a 1" group, look to make your group smaller. Worrying about what is a good group or trying to shoot a 1"group when you are not capable of it is frustrating. You've got to walk the path before you can reach your destination. Seek out the small improvements, and before you know it you'll be there. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFD Posted June 28, 2002 Share Posted June 28, 2002 I'm happy keeping everything in the "A/B" zone at 17 yards. I'm not sure why our club has a 17 yard line instead of 25 yards, but I find it to be a good distance. In a match, most shots "appear" ungodly easy because they are much closer, and even targets out to 35 yards don't seem overly far away. Other than placing some targets closer just to spice up transitioning practice, I see no use in practicing closer unless it's to build up self confidence. I've been practicing some at 50 yards just to see any mistakes magnified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted June 28, 2002 Share Posted June 28, 2002 I remember, in the 'ol days, I used to have fun test that not only tested whether I could shoot that day, but was an indication of the gun's inherent accuracy as well. Offhand, 15 yds, slowfire - every bullet hole (5 shots) should at least touch another bullet hole. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted June 29, 2002 Share Posted June 29, 2002 I have shot countless 5 shot groups clear out to fifty yards that you could cover with 25 cents. No, not a quarter...a nickle here, a nickle there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gm iprod Posted June 29, 2002 Share Posted June 29, 2002 Use larger diameter bullets, stand closer. It will make the groups look smaller. I hate my .17rem. I can shoot a 1/2" group at 100 and they still don't touch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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